Atlantic Polynesia

[tormsen]

This is a geological what-if, so for the purposes of this discussion we are assuming that despite the changes and resulting butterflies, evolution and the rise of humanity happens on schedule. I think that the effects of the changes I've made on climate and such would be mild enough that to allow suspension of disbelief in this matter. If someone with more detail knowledge of geography and climate has issue, please mention it. I just don't want about four replies saying "this isn't the ASB section", please.

Anyway, I have basically created a much larger number of north Atlantic islands. With very little knowledge of this sort of thing, I looked at the seafloor maps and chose what I thought were likely locations for possible islands. This may require changes if completely impossible, but if not I like the way they look at the moment. I'm interested in the effects of these islands on human history.

I'm assuming that the (eastern) islands will probably be colonised by the Guanches or similar peoples from Africa, as in OTL, sometime after 1000 BC. I'd say the western islands would be reached as well, and colonised, but I'm not sure of what the most plausible timing would be.

The eastern islands may be visited by ancient Phoenicians, Mauretanians and other Mediterranean peoples, but I assume they will be of as little interest as the Canary islands in OTL. (Or maybe not. This could lead to a Juba the Navigator and Mauretanian New World scenario, which would be unique at the very least. Also, there are the Carthaginians. But I see it as a low probability scenario).

Would the greater number of islands and greater expansion of the Guanche people across the Atlantic result in a better navigational package? If they reach the North American mainland (during the AD era, most likely), they would introduce (some) disease as well as a few items, perhaps goats, sheep or pigs and possibly wheat and barley. If the islands are a (distant) part of the Roman trade sphere, we might see potsherds and coins reaching parts of North America.

Later (butterflies notwithstanding and assuming no major divergances), it is likely the islands will be more comprehensively explored by Arabs (who reached the Canaries in OTL) and then by Balearic Spaniards and Portugeuse. That's probably when keeping butterflies under control would become completely untenable.

Thoughts?

[Lord Grattan]

(Disclaimer: I'm neither a climate or oceanic scientist, so I may be wrong) Going by your map the Gulf Stream as it exists and functions in OTL probably does neither in TTL. If that's the case, then the last Ice Age likely lasted longer and the ice covered more of the Northern Hemisphere. In which case the butterflies became untenable 12,000 or so years ago and there will be no Phoenicians, Mauretanians, Carthaginians, Guanche or Romans, let alone Arabs, Balearic Spaniards or Portugese. Whatever seafaring peoples emerge in what we call Africa and Southern Europe will undoubtedly find exploration of the "Atlantic" more intriging, alluring and profitable in TTL then folks did in OTL and do more of it then our ancestors did and do it earlier then they did.

[tormsen]

Are those islands really enough to disrupt the entire Gulf Stream system? I don't know enough about it either. I was hoping that the new islands would have a minimal effect on the macroscopic state of Gulf Stream that I could plausibly get away with ignoring it for the sake of discussion.

At the end of the day, this is definately one of those scenarios where, if the butterfly effects are incidental and indirect I won't consider them. If there is a direct effect (such as if those islands would _definately_ disrupt the Gulf Stream enough to prolong the Ice Age), then it's no good. But if it's not completely impossible, I'd like to maintain historical continuity up to the time people start actually going out and discovering the islands.

Hell, if Turtledove can get away with putting a whole damn mini-continent in the mid-Atlantic I don't see whats wrong with a few strategically place island chains.

[tormsen]

From what I can gather from looking at oceanic current maps, most of the Gulf Stream would go right around my Atlantesian islands. I just don't think they're large enough or positioned in a way that would shut down the Gulf Stream system. So an extended European Ice Age is not a likely outcome of this particular alteration.

If I'd put something the size of Haiti or larger north of Bermuda, I think it'd be much more likely, but as it is I think it's ok. It's only those islands of the coast of North America that would even have an effect, those to the east are sitting right in the middle of the gyre.

[boynamedsue]

Originally Posted by tormsen

From what I can gather from looking at oceanic current maps, most of the Gulf Stream would go right around my Atlantesian islands. I just don't think they're large enough or positioned in a way that would shut down the Gulf Stream system. So an extended European Ice Age is not a likely outcome of this particular alteration.

If I'd put something the size of Haiti or larger north of Bermuda, I think it'd be much more likely, but as it is I think it's ok. It's only those islands of the coast of North America that would even have an effect, those to the east are sitting right in the middle of the gyre.

I really like this idea, but with the lower sea level during the ice age the islands would have been bigger and so more limiting to the gulf stream...

Maybe we can handwave it for being so cool.

Any thoughts about fauna? Flightless birds, crocodilians and giant insects are traditional I believe. You could even get a really world changing animal, a goldilocks species suitable for domestication.

[Corbell Mark IV]

Cann't help with the ocean current question, but I like it.

Earlier introduction of disease might have less impact than you think. Low density population would allow at least some of the diseases to die off as small tribes are wiped out.

Still, any decrease in the die off later on would have huge impact.

Do we have any idea what the resources of these areas would be like?

[Cash]

Re: the Gulf Stream, much depends on the size of the islands, especially those you've clustered off the east coast of Florida. If they are supposed to represent the current Bahamas, then there should be little interference. The island chain farther north may encourage a small split in the North Atlantic Current that doesn't currently exist, but again it depends on the size of the land masses involved.

So the question is, how big are the islands ITTL?

[tormsen]

Originally Posted by boynamedsue

Any thoughts about fauna? Flightless birds, crocodilians and giant insects are traditional I believe. You could even get a really world changing animal, a goldilocks species suitable for domestication.

In the eastern islands I see a similar situation to the Canary islands: animals like Mediterranean Monk Seals, various giant lizards, perhaps giant rats. Lots of birds, with a lot of Galapagos-style speciation among them. Many of the native species, like in the Canary islands, will go extinct after contact with humans. I think the likelihood of any world-changing critters being present on any of the islands to be quite low. Lots of the animals present on these islands later in history will be those introduced by humans.

In the western islands I see the situation being much more like Bermuda. Not many native mammals (except some bats) and lots and lots of birds. They too would spread and speciate.

Originally Posted by Corbell Mark IV

Earlier introduction of disease might have less impact than you think. Low density population would allow at least some of the diseases to die off as small tribes are wiped out.

Do we have any idea what the resources of these areas would be like?

Very true, and the Guanches suffered from disease when they were contacted as well OTL. It's a matter of degree. What would be more important would be the possible introduction of barley, wheat, pigs, goats and/or sheep.

Resources I'm going to have to look into more, but I don't expect anything too impressive. They'd be mostly good for the location, I think. Pirate coves, whaling stations, etc.

Originally Posted by Cash

Re: the Gulf Stream, much depends on the size of the islands, especially those you've clustered off the east coast of Florida. If they are supposed to represent the current Bahamas, then there should be little interference. The island chain farther north may encourage a small split in the North Atlantic Current that doesn't currently exist, but again it depends on the size of the land masses involved.

So the question is, how big are the islands ITTL?

Those are the Bahamas, they were already there to begin with. The islands aren't particularly big at all, they're comparable to more Canary islands or Azores scattered hither and tither. You can kind of tell from the borders which ones I've added. The island chain in the north is really the only one I think needs worrying about, and I don't think its large enough to cause much of a split.

[DValdron]

I'm looking at ocean currents and the various polynesian archipelagos. I don't believe that there's a significant effect on Pacific currents. I think that we'd probably be safe here.

A lot depends on undersea topography, however.

[john]

I don't think the gulf stream would be affected at all. If the islands are large enough, they might shift some of the currents, but certainly would not stop them. I think at the most they might affect the climate of the British islands and Norway. heres a link of a map of ocean currents.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...erless%293.png

Are these islands volcanic or coral? otl, Bermuda is the northernmost coral atoll. Anyway, I like geologic pods so please continue.

[tormsen]

I'm going to basically discount any disruption of the Gulf Stream, as I don't believe the islands are big enough to have much of an effect. In practice, sure there would be an effect but for the purposes of this timeline I'm not going to sweat it.

Similarly, I don't think there will be any large changes to history in the ancient period. Mauretanian and Carthaginian discovers may venture out to the islands, but as with the Canary islands of OTL I doubt they will find much of interest there for them.

The Canary islands were colonised from the mainland between 1000 BC and 100 AD, which is a huge space of time. I think that it is likely the the Guanches (this is a catchall term for a bunch of different peoples in OTL, so I might as well use it) would spread west from the Canary islands to my new Sargasso Sea islands, then further onwards to the Azores and the series of islands I have created along the mid-Atlantic ridge. I think they would become steadily more adept at seafaring as they went.

As OTL, the Canary islands would have some contact with the mainland but it would be very limited. The Guanches would probably be left on their own until about the 8th century, after that there's going to be more interest and trade with Africa and Europe. I'd like to have them plausibly spread across the entire Atlantic by that stage. They will reach the North American mainland, but they will not colonise (they are a people given to colonising uninhabited islands, not inhabited lands). There will be some trade and intercourse with the natives of the North American mainland, however.

There is going to be a lot of cultural and linguistic drift as they spread across the Atlantic, just as with the Polynesians. Common cultural features will probably be the raising of livestock, mummification of the dead and religious practices. But it is likely that the Guanches of Bermuda and the Canary islands Guanches would be as different as Hawaiians and Maori.

[tormsen]

This is just a map with some provisional names. These are most definately not the names that the islands would be known as ITTL, but they are just a temporary stop-gap while I can work some things out.

[Justin Green]

an idea i had for a unique specie, flightless bats.

[NothingNow]

this is Cool. Reminds me of the Zeelandia thread a while back.
The Sargasso and Ridge Islands on your map might just get folded in to the Azores by whoever actually puts them on the map in TTL.

[NothingNow]

Originally Posted by Justin Green

an idea i had for a unique specie, flightless bats.

It's been Done. Dougal Dixon did it. a lot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/After_M..._of_the_Future
Seriously get it Its a good book. I used to have a Copy but I lost it.

[tormsen]

Flora and fauna of Macaronesia

In the Eastern Macaronesia islands, such as the Azores, the Sargasso islands and the Ridge islands, the predominant flora are vast stands of preserved populations of Laurisilva trees. These trees were the worlds last remaining examples of Pliocene subtropical forests, which once flourished around the Mediterranean region. These trees support a diverse understory of ferns, herbacious plants and populations of birds, insects and bats. The most widely known are the Myrica faya berries, which will be eaten by the Macaronesians and later used to make wine by European colonisers.

There are few endemic birds in the Eastern islands, bar bullfinches and goldcrests. Many of the species are of Afro-European origin though there is a greater mix in the Ridge islands. Macronesian bats are a common species, one of the few bat species that hunts by day and migrates throughout the islands, though has been displaced from some of the Ridge islands by invaded North American species. Many of the islands were visited in the winter months by large populations of Giant Auks, particularly the most northern Ridge islands. These giant birds were hunted by the Macaronesians, and later by the Europeans, which led unfortunately to the species extinction.

Western Macaronesia is a paradise of avian life. It is well known that North America possesses a greater number of migratory birds than any other continent, because of its variable climate and great extremes of temperature. These meteorological conditions give rise to sudden and violent storms, and these, blowing from the land, catch and carry out to sea the birds on their periodical journeys to the north and to the south. Immense numbers of these birds must perish every year, when swept out in this way on the stormy Atlantic, but many of those that survived found themselves new homes in the Hatteras islands and the Bermudas. Many of these moved further onwards to the Ridge islands and beyond. The most recognisable is the Cahow which is endemic throughout the Eastern islands. The distinctive nocturnal call of these birds which led to the description of the islands by the first Macaronesian colonisers as the “Wailing isles”, and also caused superstitious reactions among the first European explorers and fishermen.

The Western islands are also home to four species of migratory North American bats of the genus Lasiurus: the Hoary Bat, Eastern Red Bat, Seminole Bat and Silver-haired Bat. The Eastern Red Bat is the most common in the region, having established populations there. This species is also occasionally present in the Ridge islands to the east. One island is particularly notable for having a unique species of flightless hoary bat that has adapted to a lifestyle of hunting skinks.

A variety of whales, dolphins and porpoises are known to these islands, which led to the development of the keen Macaronesian whaling culture. Between the islands is the vast Sargasso sea and it's seaweed growths, but around many of the islands themselves one finds a rich abundance of sea life. It is this abundance which drove the Macaronesian peoples across the Atlantic ocean in the first place.

[DValdron]

Bump.

This thread was getting interesting.

[Cook]

Put the island further south. Between Western Africa and Brazil.