WI- The United States joins Central Powers

Lets say that Britain in 1915 opens unrestricted submarine warfare against the Central Powers, and many American ships are lost throughout that year, as well as 1916 and 1917. The tensions rise between Britain and England, to the extent that, fearing an American entrance into the war on the Central Powers side, they send a Telegram to Mexico in 1917, informing them that they will receive Texas if they were to join England in a war on America if war started. The United States, as well as the Germans intercept this message. Over the next month, debates spark around America as the boiling point is reached. Finally, in April 1917, the United States of America, declares war on the Allies and joins the Central Powers. Following soon afterwords, from fear of an American attack, Mexico follows America. Cuba, Panama, Siam, Liberia, China, Brazil, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Honduras, and Haiti also follow suite over the next month. (These nations followed America into the war IOTL).



Following this, what would happen....


My main scenario-

With American forces mobilizing, the obvious site of a possible war would be Canada and the Caribbean. In April and May, the first battles would be small naval skirmishes in the Atlantic and the Caribbean between Allied and American navies, most being American victories with far more firepower. At the same time, the United States Army and Marine Corps would stage raids on border towns in Canada.

The first major military action would be the American invasion of Canada, which would likely occur in June of 1917. The United States would almost immediately begin drafting, and with the first wave of draftees out of Basic training, they can be sent to a new offensive. The offensive would last for a month and its objective would be to secure Southern Ontario, as well as parts of the border across the massive lines. The offensive would be quick, with most Canadian forces on the Western Front. Within a month, the Canadians, mostly police and militia, would retreat to the north. The English would send as many troops to Quebec to counter the American war machine, and in August, would launch an offensive into Upstate New York, capturing cities like Albany, Buffalo, and retaking some ground in Toronto. The front lines reaching only about fifty kilometers from New York, which in some areas, is in artillery range. English ships at any chance they got would launch gas attacks at American troops and bombard coastal cities across the Atlantic seaboard.

The Americans now dig in for the winter, and organize enough troops to counter attack in December. They are swift, retaking most of New York and pushing deep into Quebec. Arriving Mexican and Brazilian troops take the reserves as more American troops swarm into the last British lines in Eastern Canada. The English by February of 1918 flee from Eastern Canada, leaving the rest of Canada to fight on its own.


On the Western Front on the American declaration of War, the Central Powers armies are virtually ecstatic from the news. The desperately needed Morale is given to the German troops, which, although their relations with America is also strained from the Submarine Warfare, hopes they can be close allies. Later that month, the United States joins the Central Powers officially. Some American divisions that joined the Germans in earlier years as volunteers are officially incorporated into the German or American armed forces, and American submarines start to swarm into the North Sea. Several victories for the Germans take place all over the front lines, but it goes mostly as OTL.

In the Pacific, Australia, Japan, and New Zealand, all Allied are now at threat from the United States. The US Navy is deployed from the Phillipines, hunting down British shipping lanes, as well as Allied vessels. China, being now an Ally of the United States is now at war with most other nations who occupy parts of their nation, tying down nearly 100,000 Allied troops in the process, and as the months go on, more and more Allied troops are tied down in the Chinese "Rebellion". Other battles in the Pacific would take place outside of Vladivostok between the Russians and the Americans, probably being an American victory and destroying most of the Russian Pacific fleet. Other campaigns might include the Americans trying to take the German colony captured in the Early war in New Guenai, as well as a capture of Hong Kong.

The next year on the American front will once again go well for the Americans, an Offensive to take the French Guyana takes place by the Brazilians, and a joint American/Cuban Offensive takes the Bahamas, Jamacia, and Bermuda. By May of 1918, the Americans have most of the Caribbean under their hands, and begin planning to take action in Europe, where the stalemate still continues.


In Russia, the Bolshevik Revolution continues. Seeing the devastating American Attack at Vladivostok the Previous year, Leon Trotsky is asked to negociate with the Americans, as well as the other Central Powers. They sign the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk with the Germans, giving much of East Europe to Germany, and the Treaty of Vladivostok, giving America permission to send troops through Russia into Germany to support the Central Powers, as well as full access to the Sea Ports. Over the next month in June-July, American forces land at Vladivostok for the long Journey ito Germany.


The Americans, gaining naval superiority in the Atlantic, being to attack British positions along the African Coastline, as well as infiltrating the Straits of Gibraltar. American vessels in August break through the Allied Blockade of Germany, and manage to keep it away from Germany. Over that month alone, over 90,000 American troops arive at the front lines. With the British loosing total control of the situation over the next few months, and a massive Central Powers offensive in September, Britain gives up and in October, signs a ceasefire with the Central Powers. On November 11th, 1918, the French surrender unconditionally to the Central Powers.


Over the next days, Englands Commonwealths who remained in the war with France also sign on, Japan, still fighting the Naval war, also signs the Armistice.


In 1919, the Treaty of New York in signed. It does the following...


-France has the total blame for starting the war.
-France is to reduce its military force to 100,000 Soldiers.
-France is to give up all lands up to Metz, Cosica, as well as all Foreign colonies to the Central Powers
-The territory between Paris and Germany is to be Demilitarized, with Central Powers occupation.
-France must pay total war reparations to the Central Powers
-The current French government must resign and give way to new elections.
-Frances Navy is to be dismantled or given to the Central Powers

-Belgium is to be completely annexed to Germany.
-Luxembourg is to be annexed by Germany
-All territory gained in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk is to be kept by the Germans
-The Treaty of Vladivostok as punishment to the Russians is to still stand


-The English overseas colonies of Hong Kong, South Africa, and other colonies in the Pacific are to go to American control.
-The Royal Navy is to be cut by 50%, and no ships are to be built until 1930
-The Royal Army is to disband approximately 50% of its men
-The Territory of India is to remain under American control until 1935, in which it will be returned under joint American-Anglic Control

-Greece is to be split between the Ottoman Empire and Austria-Hungary
-Egypt is to be given to the Ottomans
-Persia is to be given to the Ottomans
-Libya is to be given to the Ottomans

-Northern Italy is to be a Protectorate of Austria
-The Italian Armed Forces will be split in half from its current size
-The Po River down to Rome is to be a Demilitarized Zone


What do you think
 
First of all, why would the Turks be given so much when they could barely hold themselves together at the time?

Britain's white dominions will likely be untouched by the USA, aside from maybe bombing raids, as they are the colonies with the closest ties to Britain. The Yanks wouldn't be able to hold on.

There's no conceivable way that India will be transferred from one power to another. At most, they would get independence. Your scenario depicts Central America being terrified of an American invasion. Why would the US invade? They don't need to. You pose the idea that it is Britain and not Germany that starts unrestricted submarine warfare: The USA would get involved to protect her shipping rights and citizens, not to land-grab.

There is no reason for the US to simply join the Central Powers. They would have to protect their own interests, not Germany's, Austria's or the Ottomans'.

All I can see is a huge Ameriwank that could not happen the way you have described. ASB.

EDIT: As for the comment above, Canada would not be admitted as the 51st State, and probably never will be. All the US would be gaining is a nation with a huge pro-British population that has huge tracts of land to retreat into, much like the Russians. At the most, the US would annex territory into their Northern Border.
 
Why would Britian attack US ships?
The US wasn't shipping to either, and by now much of the German fleet would have been sunk. there's no need to open unrestricted warfare unless the Brits Want to piss the US off.
I'm pretty sure this falls into ASB.
 
ASB list;

1. Britain didn't have a submarine fleet to pull this of. Germany only started to depend on the submarine due to the British North Sea blockade. Britain had really no need to become a submarine power.
2. Why would Britain disrupt Atlantic trade?? They already forced Germany out of business by blockading the North Sea. No way they'd want to disrupt their own trade with America.
 
Following your scenario and in agreement with previous comments.

Britain did not have a submarine fleet that could work in the Atlantic. At best it is the "K" Class of submarine which was a disaster. They would not be used. Britain would use surface ships and therefore be able to identify ship nationality and NOT sink US ships. At worse, board and turn around those going to Germany or central powers. A few may get sunk, but most likely not.

Assuming that the US does join CPs, then Britain would send troops to Canada and leave the French to themselves for the time being. Commonwelth troops would also go to defeating the US in an attempt at a quick victory in America, then back to the long slog in France.

As to the naval situation, you will probably be looking at a US/UK Jutland. The UK would wipe the floor with the US as they have a much larger navy, with war experience to call on, and also commonwelth nations. The HSF could use this to their advantage and sortie, but they lack the fuel capacity and fueling bases to take full advantage of this by attacking Atlantic Convoys or shipping.
 
Getting the US with the Central Powers is tricky, but the POD proposed is ASB. The UK doesn't need USW because they have the RN.
 
You know I have always liked the idea of the US joining the central powers, but this POD is insultingly ASB. Frankly this would require a POD in the late 1800s, I think.
 
There perhaps are a few reasons the US might go to war with Britain over the Royal Navy blockade, but German behaviour throughout the first two years of the war (both actual and as expressed in allied propaganda) would make it almost impossible for the US to ally itself with authoritarian, baby-killing huns against Britain and France.

A more interesting possibility would be for the US to adopt an aggressive stance of armed neutrality in enforcing "Freedom of the Seas", designating and aggresively patrolling identified routes for US shipping throughout the world and attacking any Allied or German military vessels found in proximity to US shipping within these corridors.

Thus, the USA would be a belligerent in WW1, but not tied to either alliance. This could result in some interesting postwar developments
 
We all agree this is ASB. Let's discuss if the US did join the CP for whatever reason in whatever year. I think this is a main point to this thread.


  1. Is there any reason to believe that the USA could lose to Britain in Canada?
  2. Is there any reason to believe that the USN could defeat the RN? (in the first years of the war at least)
  3. If the CPs win (at least just Germany and the USA), would English still become the de facto language as it did in OTL? Or would it be German? Or both?
  4. Could the USN defeat the IJN? The IRN?
  5. Where would the US be mpre interested in attacking by order? (NE Canada, NW Canada, Carribean, Pacific Islands, France, NE SA, Africa, NZ, Australia, Eastern Russia, Japan)
My thoughts:

  1. No
  2. No
  3. IDK
  4. Yes. Yes.
  5. IDK after Canada and the Carribean
 
A few things that also need to be pointed out:

-India would be even less happy under American rule than British (At least Britain had already adjusted things to suit the Indian culture).
-Giving Austria any more land in the Balkans is a terrible idea. Yugoslavia collapsed violenly for a reason you know. Plus, they appear not to have any land connection to it.
-Germany didn't want Belgium, and has no reason to want to get Belgium. At least Luxembourg is actually German.
-The Ottomans won't want a repeat of the Greek Independence wars.
-Paris is a very long way from the Border.
-France loses all those colonies, but Britain keeps most of hers? Not to mention the fact that South Africa is a Self-governing Dominion by now.
-America gains huge amounts of land that's practically worthless for them, and Germany appears to do terribly from this.

Also, the Scenario's ASB
 
Lets say that Britain in 1915 opens unrestricted submarine warfare against the Central Powers, and many American ships are lost throughout that year, as well as 1916 and 1917.

I would suggest that Britain does not need to conduct unrestricted submarine warfare, British naval dominance, and the combined entente navies can establish a blockade of the Central Powers without resorting to this.

In addition even back then Britain may very well not only crave continued trade with America, but may even be reliant upon it.

British unrestricted submarine warfare in the atlantic is ASB.

There are some pretty serious problems with the rest of it but as the whole thing is moot there is no point addressing them.
 

Eurofed

Banned
I agree with the judgement of other people about the implausibility of the OP's PoD propoasal. However, a CP USA is far from impossible. You need either a cause for long-term US anti-Entente resentment in the later 1800s or a combination of factors that move the sympathies of the US public towards the CPs during the war.

About the first PoD, I suggest that the US and UK come to blows in 1896 about the Venezuela issue, or France intervenes to the side of Spain in the Spanish-American War. America gets a humiliating bloody nose, spends the next two decades rebuilding its armed forces, and forms an unspoken quasi-alliance with the CPs.

Alternatively, use one of my preferred WWI PoDs: Italy (and quite possibly, Sweden as well) join the CPs.

Sweden because the Admiral Essen PoD is in effect (rogue commander of Russian Baltic Fleet makes a first strike against Swedish navy on his own and outraged Sweden declares war). (August 1914)

Italy because Germany successfuly strongarms Austria-Hungary in ceding Trento and Gorizia-Gradisca to Italy as the price for their CP belligerance during the early 1915 negotiations, plus it promises Italy all of Nice, Savoy, Corsica, Tunisia, Chad, Gibuti, and eastern Algeria from defeated France. (May 1915).

Alternatively, you could make Germany adopt an East First policy, which would keep Italy in the CPs as well (since in this case Russia and France would declare war first). However, this would almost surely keep the UK neutral as well, and it is very hard to bring the USA in the war then (besides, the fun of the PoD is to see Canada wiped off the map by the one-million US Army).

Anyway, with the first PoD, you have German-Americans and Italian-Americans all lobbying for the CPs. Quite possibly Swedish-Americans as well and Entente aggression in Scandinavia balancing CP one in Belgium. Because of this, the US initially maintains true neutrality between warring alliances, and tries its best to trade with both sides, but American public opinion gradually grows more sympathetic to the CPs.

Because the Entente blockade interferes with American trade with the CPs (whose block is including a bigger and bigger slice of European trade as time goes on), while the CPs are not interfering nearly as much with American merchant shipping ITTL (they have better perspective of victory, so they don't use unrestricted submarine warfare), American public opinion and large sectors of American economic interests become definitely hostile to the Entente and their naval blockade. Nationalistic newspapers linked to US economic interests that foresee and auspicate the downfall of the Entente (so that the USA can rise in the place of the British Empire) start fueling these anti-Entente feelings by highlighting the parallels with the War of 1812 and fanning the embers of American expansionistic-irredentist aspirations for the annexation of Canada.

Some sectors of British and French ruling elites see the danger of a coming clash with the USA, and try pushing for distensive modifications to the blockade, but such measures come out as too late, too little, since after a while the opposite pressure prevails from political and military sectors of Entente ruling circles that believe a strict, harshly enforced blockade is the decisive way to win a war that appears more and more compromised by the day. They (wrongly) gamble that an airtight blockade may bring the CPs to their knees before an irate America can do anything worthwhile. The renewed harsh blockade soon brings a chain of nasty incidents with American merchant ships, with repeated sinkage or severe damage of American ships and deaths of US sailors.

An anti-Entente war fever soon builds up in the American public, nationalist circles and newspapers increasingly agitate for breaking the "pirate" Entente blockade by force and uprooting Entente strategic threat on the American continent by "liberating" Canada, and after one naval incident too many, the Congress declares war to Britain and France.
 
Alright, I admit my scenario is a little far fetched, it was an idea in my head I had to get out. Who would win with your scenario then?


If America looses, they might be like Post War Germany, territory lost to the Canadians, the Philippines go to the Brits, and a Nazi/Fascist government rising in the post war world, blaming some minority that is available (Mexicans or the English)

If America wins, England is stripped of all of its Overseas territory, only keeping Scotland, Wales, and a few Atlantic or Caribbean Islands. Northern Ireland would be merged with Ireland, India independent. France's colonies given to Germany and Italy, as well as England's colonies. Canada would probably be annexed, or kept under a heavily Pro-American puppet state.

Perhaps in a Post War American/CP Victory, Austria would still collapse into many nation states, as well as the Ottomans, perhaps in the late 20's or 30's. The CP might also want to intervene in the Russian Civil War with the Red Scare continuing in America.
 
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