New Timeline. WI HSF Fought GF on 28/10/1918?

Hi all. I am writing a new alternative timeline in which Plan 19 is put into operation. For those that do not know what it is, Plan 19 was the planned High Seas Fleet of Germany's sorte against the Grand Fleet.

Historically, this lead to the Wihelmshaven Mutiny which lead to a Revolution in Germany, the fall of the Imperial Govermant, the abdication of Kaiser Wilhelm II and Armistice. What if it did not?

Changes to the HSF plan: They leave at dawn not at night and they remain close to the Dutch/German coastlines. The idea of this being more survivors from sunken ships.

Timeline:



October 28th 1918 - The Day History Changed [SIZE=-1]Dawn till 09:00[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
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As dawn broke in the Schillig Roads off Wilhelmshaven Admiral Franz von Hipper looked out from the bridge wing over the ships at anchor there awaiting his order to set sail into the North Sea to seek the British Grand Seas Fleet for battle. Although he couldn't see many of his ships due to the thick fog, he could hear some of them. He knew that he had over 150 ships, the bulk of the High Seas Fleet, ready and waiting for his orders! His mind was turned to the attention of battle formations and the fleet signals he would need to command all these ships when his eye was caught by the sight of a small launch heading for his flagship, the SMS Baden. Although she was only commissioned just over 2 long wartorn years earlier on October 19th 1916 she was still the most advanced and powerful battleship in the German Fleet, and as such, his chosen flagship.
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[SIZE=-1]NOTE: For those that think giving the High Seas Fleet 150+ ships is unrealastic, I am taking that number as including all classes of ships, and most available ships. In 1918 Admiral Hipper had the following numbers of ships seaworthy: 18 Dreadnought Battleships, 5 Dreadnought Battlecruisers, 10 Pre-Dreadnought Battleships (A number more were restricted to harbour as prison or barrack ships and thus not seaworthy), No Armoured Cruisers, 19 Light Cruisers (Including 7 on Harbour Duty), No Protected Cruisers, 2 Seaplane Carriers and over 100 Destroyers. This means that of the 150+ ships I give Admiral Hipper, only 53 are Cruiser size and above. The remainder are Destroyers. This is the historical strength of ships available to the High Seas Fleet in late 1918. If an operation was planned, then only a handful of ships would be in drydock and thus un-available for duty. I took these ship numbers from "Castles of Steel: Britain, Germany and the Winning of the Great War at Sea" by Robery K. Massie.
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As his ships were all already fully provisioned and crewed the approching launch could only carry orders and intelligence from the Naval High Command. As the launch pulled alongside he walked back into the bridge to find out what new information or orders had arrived for him. He did not have to wait long as a few minutes later he was surprised by the arrival of Admiral Reinhard Scheer, the head of the Kaiserliche Admiralstab (German Imperial Admirlaty) and reporting directly to the Kaiser! This thought Admiral Hipper can only be bad news. The Kaiser must have got wind of his plans and ordered Admiral Scheer to stop him.

This was not the case however. Admiral Scheer told him that he agreed with Admiral Hipper's view that destruction of the Grand Fleet may force better negotiation at the peace table and retain the honour of the High Seas Fleet, and as such, he was giving Admiral Hipper permission to proceed with Plan 19. Admiral Scheer handed Admiral Hipper their latest intelligence reports of the locations and dispositions of the Grand Fleet and shaking Admiral Hipper's hand, wished him good luck, said he wished he could be going with him and told him that at midday, regardless of whether the fleet had sailed or not, he would inform the Kaiser and the goverment of his plans. With that he turned and left the SMS Baden to return to the Naval High Command and the Kaiser.
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[SIZE=-1]NOTE: For those that are not aware, Plan 19 was a plan developed by Admiral Hipper which called for light forces to strike against the Thames Estuary, Flanders and the English Channel to draw the Grand Fleet South, where a waiting line of U-boats would attempt to even the odds. After that, the High Seas Fleet would engage its opponent in one last titanic encounter.
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Admiral Hipper ordered that the fleet breckfast and be ready to sail no later than 09:00 hours and then retired to his cabin to read the intelligence reports he had just been handed. The intellegence told him that the Grand Fleet was aware that something was up, and had sailed the night before. Over 250 ships were at sea steaming toward what they hoped would be an engagement with his ships. The reports also told him that the submarines stationed outside the British harbours had sunk and damaged several smaller ships and auxilary vessels. Most importantly though, one Queen Elizabeth Class battleship had been damaged and had returned to port! Although only one of the British battleships was damaged, she was one of the most advanced that the British had. Her loss from combat may help the High Seas Fleet in the comming battle.
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[SIZE=-1]NOTE: Again, if you think this number is unrealistic, the Grand Fleet had over 350 ships at its disposial in 1918. Since the only major naval threat was the High Seas Fleet, colonial duties were left to pre-dreadnought class ships. If the ENTIRE High Seas Fleet sortied, then the majority of the Grand Fleet would be required to counter it. The available ships were: 4 Aircraft/Seaplane Carriers, 30 Dreadnought Battleships, 9 Dreadnought Battlecruisers, No Pre-Dreadnought Battleships, 1 Heavy Cruiser, 30 to 40 Light Cruisers and 250+ Destroyers. On top of this, the Grand Fleet had several ships of Commonwealth Navies and 5 United States Battleships stationed with it (US Designation: Battleship Division Nine, UK Designation: Sixth Battle Squadron). Again, as you can see, the bulk of the ships available to the Grand Fleet are destroyers, with some 74 to 84 ships of Cruiser size or larger. Since the Grand Fleet would have to react to intelligence regarding the actions of the High Seas Fleet, then it would be safe to assume that several ships of each class would be in drydock undergoing maintance and the like. Even if 10% of each ship class (except Heavy Cruisers) were unavailable, then the Grand Fleet would still have a large majority over the High Seas Fleet.</I>
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At 08:45 hours Admiral Hipper returned to the bridge of the SMS Baden to oversee the fleet leaving harbour. There were already reports stating that ships were fully ready for sea and just awaiting his orders. He gave the order to follow the pre-arranged plan, meaning that at 09:00 destroyers and light cruisers were to leave harbour, sweep for British submarines and form escort and scouting formations to the North of Wangerooge Island. The large ships of the fleet would leave harbour at 10:00 and join with them. By 11:00 he planned to have the fleet arranged with battlecruisers leading battleships at the center, followed by pre-dreadnoughts with light cruisers leading and screening on the beams and destroyers scouting and forming an outer screen. After that, he planned to sail West toward the English Channel and dispatch light forces into the Thames Estuary (7 Light Cruisers and 5 Destroyers), English Channel (2 Battlecruisers, 3 Light Cruisers and 5 Destroyers) and along the Belgian coast to bombard Flanders (3 Light Cruisers and 1 Destroyer Flotilla). Once these attacks had been carried out, the fleet would regroup and turn West along the Dutch and German coasts, all moderatly or heavily damaged ships would return to port and the remainder of the fleet would await the Grand Fleet.

Admiral Hipper hoped that the Grand Fleet would arrive at dusk on October 30th so that he could take advantage of the superior night action training that his crews had over the British crews, and planned to send his seaplanes out on the morning of the 30th to scout for them. Once they were located he would have the planes recovered and send the ships back to port as they would require protection during combat and were virtually un-armed.



October 28th 1918 - The Day History Changed [SIZE=-1]09:00 till 13:00[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
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At 09:00 the bulk of Admiral Hipper's Destroyers and Light Cruisers had started to move away from piers and jettys and slip out of their harbours. The process was a long one however, as the fog was still breaking up and was still still heavy in places. Ships had to travel slowly as a result in order to avoid collisions.

By 09:45 hours it was clear that the light ships would never clear the harbours and approches by 10:00, so Admiral Hipper give orders that the large ships were to delay their departure by 1 hour so that the smaller vessels could clear harbour, sweep for submarines and form up prior to the larger ships getting underway, and so that the larger and smaller ships would not get into each other's way. Apart from some submarine alerts as the light ships left harbour, there were no delays to the new time schedule and by 11:45 the fleet was formed up North of Wangerooge Island, and had started to steam West towards the English Channel.

As no ships had been attacked by submarine, Admiral Hipper hoped that the submarine reports were false, and that his current location and direction of travel was unknown to the Grand Fleet. Unbenown to him however, two of the submarine reports had been accurate. Due to intelligance, the Grand Fleet was aware that an operation was planned by the High Seas Fleet, and as such, submarines had been positioned to scout on the direction and makeup of the departing fleet.
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[SIZE=-1]NOTE: This is feasable as the Royal Navy had submarines in the Kattegat and off the German and Dutch coasts for reconassance and anti-submarine duties.
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At 12:00 Admiral Hipper knew that Admiral Scheer was entering his meeting with the Kaiser to inform him of what was happening, and as such, he was expecting signals. What these signals would say, he did not know however. In the event, at 12:25 he recieved an urgent and personal signal from Kaiser Wilhelm II, and at 12:35 an urgent signal from the Naval Cabinet, followed shortly by another from the Kaiserliche Admiralstab.

The Kaiser's signal can be read at the bottom of this post.

The Kaiser praised Admiral Hipper for his bravery and commitment to duty, but urged him to return to port as his death and the destruction of the fleet would, in his mind, serve no useful purpose to Imperial Germany.

The signal from the Naval Cabinet was another matter however. Whilst the Kaiser, supreme head of the German armed forces, had not ordered him to return to port, this signal did. It was from the Chief of the Naval Cabinet, Admiral Müller, but he was passing it on from the Chancellor of Germany, Prince Maximilian of Baden.

In stark contrast to the Kaiser's signal, the Chancellor's was blunt and to the point. He ordered him to return to port and surrender his command as his actions were in stark contrast to the attempts of the goverment to end the war, and if the attack occured then no peace would be found and Germany would be invaded and destroyed as a result.

As he had a signal from the Kaiser which did not order him to return to port, and since the Kaiser out-ranked the Chancellor, Admiral Hipper chose to ignore this second signal and proceed as planned.

The third signal, the one from the Kaiserliche Admiralstab, was an intelligence report. 5 minutes previously to the signel a transmission was intercepted from close by the German coast, in the location of the Schillig Roads. The coding was British and could only be a report of the fleet, it's ships, direction and speed.

It was this report that worried Admiral Hipper most. The Grand Fleet was at sea he knew, and now they knew he was and in what direction they were travelling. At 13:00 hours he gave orders that his two seaplane carriers were to keep constant patrols during daylight hours, ranging as far as possible North in the North Sea, and to the coast of England to the East, reporting on open frequences any warships they located. The seaplane carriers were to stay with the fleet, travel together and be escorted by 5 destroyers. These reconissance operations were to be supported with pre-planned reconissance sorties by Zeppelins.




October 28th 1918 - The Day History Changed [SIZE=-1]13:00 till 18:00[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]At 13:30 with the bulk of the High Seas Fleet steaming on an Westerly direction, Admiral Hipper watched as 7 ships broke formation and turned into the wind to launch the first wave of seaplane scouts that were going to head West ahead of the fleet to perform reconissance of the English Channel and Thames Estury.


Kaisers Signal:

To: Admiral Franz Ritter von Hipper, Commander High Seas Fleet.


Admiral, I have just been informed by Admiral Scheer as to your plans regarding the High Seas Fleet, and to your determination to seek a final battle with the Grand Fleet of the Royal Navy. As you are no doubt aware, the Royal Navy outnumbers you in every catagory of ship, and as such you are sailing to almost certain defeat at its hands.

Admiral Scheer has told me of Plan 19, and I agree that it is a sound plan. As such, I will not order you to return to port with my navy, as I too believe that the honour of the Navy will only be strengthened by it seeking battle and fighting with determination and honour.

That said however, I would urge you not to waste the lives of your men. If, having fought with honour, certain defeat looms, then the retreat, scuttling or surrender your ships, in the face of a more powerful foe, so as to save the lives of your men, would not be a stain on the honour of the navy, and nobody could accuse it of being so. A ship can be rebuilt, a life cannot.

I therefore urge you to return to port so as not to waste the lives of your men, but if you are determined to find combat against the Grand Fleet, then I must urge you to fight with honour and when the time comes, to think of the lives of your men and not of the honour of the Navy as it will only be strengthened by an honourable fight.
Whatever happens and when you return home for whatever reason, it will be as men who did their duty to the last and as heros to the German People.


Signed: Kaiser Wilhelm II


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I am still writing page. 13:00 till 18:00, so to be updated.

I do have a few questions:
Does anybody know the names of the HSF Seaplane Carriers? I know they had two, but cannot find the names!

Does the telegram sound Kaiserish enough? Wilhelm thought of the HSF as his personal fleet - he was attached to them. I wanted the telegram to sound Kaiserish but formal.

If anybody has any comments I welcome them. I have tried to keep the ship numbers historic. The HSF have readied all available ships and the GF have a number in port for repairs/maintance etc, hence the numbers I use.


Thanks, David.
 

LittleSpeer

Monthly Donor
wow now this seems to have potential even though i can see the British being way more pissed. If the HSF does not cause enough damage the the British may keep the Blockade up longer.
 
Maybe, but the Armistace was pretty much agreed by the time of the sorte. The German Army was retreating and a such the war was lost. The sorte by Hipper was for the honour of the navy and to try to get better peace terms. Not much else.

I am thinking that if it does take out a chunk of the GF then Germany can get better terms, keep the Kaiser and then the Washington Treaty of 1922 is changed so that Britan and America get new ships to replace those lost.

The 5:5:3 ratio UK, USA, Japan is maintained but with new ships.....

Anyway, that is the future. For the moment I am just writing and re-writing to try and get an accurate starting point!!
 
Does anybody know the names of the HSF Seaplane Carriers? I know they had two, but cannot find the names!

Source: Warships of World War 1 by H. M. Le Fleming p.261

German Ships

Aircraft Carriers. Since the Germans used Zeppelins and land-based aircraft, their only ships to carry seaplanes were the cruiser Stettin (altered for this purpose in 1918), a the raider Wolf and the converted merchant ship Santa Fe, a seaplane transport of 5,342 tons gross.

Wolf 5,809 tons 10.5 knots 1 seaplane - left Hamburg Dec 1916 laid mines around the Cape & Indian Ocean, and sunk at least 12 ships by conventional means, returned to Kiel Feb 1918.

P.125 Stettin Class - Light Cruiser displacement 3,550 tons 23.5 - 25.5 knots - note - in 1918 altered to carry seaplanes and 108 mines.
 
Eternity


I think the big problem would be what sunk the idea historically. Some of the officers might fancy a glorious death in battle but most of the crew definitely didn't want it. They know the war is lost and its a pointless gesture and are unlikely to be happy about it.

If you do get past this then a lot depends on sheer luck. The RN has the big advantage of breaking German radio codes, as well as the sub intercepts. Also they have seen much more service since Jutland while the Germans have, operations against Russia aside largely been inactive and there are reports that several ships were in relatively poor state. Britain has learnt a lot from Jutland and although not all the problems had been corrected - I think the Greenboys were not yet available - a lot of the problems have been sorted out. We have lost Jellicoe and instead have Beatty which could be a problem, but have a hell of a lot more firepower and a desire for revenge. Also the USN ships are a tough powerful if somewhat slow design and have had plenty of time to work up to war standards and get used to working with the RN.

As such, unless the Germans get very lucky, probably several times, say with a major proportion of the fleet lured over a minefield, then period of confusion and disorder, they are likely to get hammered very heavily and possibly have few ships get away.

After such a battle the Germans are likely to suffer badly. The pointless death and destruction is likely to anger many, both amongst the allies and the Germans. Likely to see more unrest in Germany, probably especially in the NW region where there will be more contact with the sailors and possibly especially with the survivors afterwards. Could see a revival of Hanover or greater communist success, which could have bigger butterflies. The allies would probably see the fleet attack as a sign that the Germans are not serious about peace so the war could last a bit longer and see harsher terms for both the armistice and then perhaps the peace. Especially if the US suffer marked losses in the battle that could harden feeling there. At the extreme it could mean that instead of a mixed peace such as the historical Versailles [territorially fairly moderate but economically and politically harsh] it could be more consistently harsh, or possibly but unlikely, generous.

After the war it could as you say have some interesting effects on the post-war naval situation. Could boost the prestige of the RN significantly after a somewhat disappointing conflict which although ultimately successful failed to live up to rather inflated expectations. It's unlikely to drastically change the fleet composition as the RN was to scrap most of the battlefleet anyway in the near future as too outdated. Possibly if one of the more powerful newer QE or R class ships get sunk Britain might end up with a 3rd Nelson. More likely possibly if one of the BCs that were retained OTL [Repulse, Renown, Tiger] get lost as their thinner armour makes them more vulnerable to disaster. Similarly with the USN they have so many ships under construction that its unlikely to drastically change their future forces unless they see a real disaster with most of their force wiped out. Only bit might be with all the butterflies you could see some change that results in major differences or possibly a failure of the treaty altogether but that is unlikely.

Steve
 
Hi Steve. Thanks for the thoughts.

Yes, the GF has broken the HSF codes and hence are at sea already. Coradite handling is also tightened up, so no more ships lost from hits on turrets like at Jutland. Only losses from direct hits on magazines like HMS Hood in 1941.

With Jellicoe gone, the GF is not as cautious as it was at Jutland. Betty will go charging in again I suspect. Could be a problem for the GF and an advantage of the HSF.

The GF will not loose a major quantity of ships to submarines & mines however. Some minor ships will be sink, some cruisers forced to retire but no major ships lost. As to the HSF suffering badly. Plan 19 was the HSF Death Charge. It was not meant to survive. Just inflict what damage it could on the GF. Most of it will be sunk, run ashore or so damaged that it sinks or barly makes it back (SMS Selditz after Jutland!). A number of large ships will survive but most smaller will be in trouble. Losses will probably be greater on the HSF side, but the RN will loose large ships too.

As to Versailles. The treaty will change. I am thinking that due to the loss of ships, the Germans will pay for new ships of equivilant type for the RN & USN. Financial penalties will not be as harsh, but paying for new ships will make it about on the same level as it historically was. Teatory changes will be put to a vote and abided by (Unlike after Versailles historically!) The "Polish Corridor" will also move, but will still exist.

As I said, I have a few ideas for post battle and Versallies but nothing firm yet.

David.
 
I am thinking that if it does take out a chunk of the GF then Germany can get better terms, keep the Kaiser and then the Washington Treaty of 1922 is changed so that Britan and America get new ships to replace those lost.
All things considered, I'd say the Kaiser is out, regardless. Remember, he wasn't deposed by Versailles, he was deposed by German revolution in OTL (triggered by the thing that stopped this, admittedly, but the causes for the Revolution would still remain. It might be triggered by naval defeat rather than sailor's mutiny, but avoiding it is harder).
 
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This still doesn't confront the biggest obstacle to this scenario happening. The High Seas Fleet, or at least most of the crewmen, aren't very interested in dying in this sort of forlorn hope. Why do they put to sea?

End result of this battle, unless the germans get very lucky, is that the German navy is sitting on the bottom of the north sea, and the entente breaks the back of the german war effort. They can bleed the allies, but the weight of numbers alone will mean that the germans lose, and with the fleet goes the last real hope for victory. Maybe a bit less of a stab in the back myth going around in germany postwar, but this defeat probably ends the last hope for a military salvation for the central powers, and could hasten the collapse of the Imperial system.
 
the entente breaks the back of the german war effort. .
In October 1918 the central powers are already retreating. Isn't it too late for that?

with the fleet goes the last real hope for victory.

I'm sorry if I don't understand you right, but in October 1918 the central powers have already lost. Plan 19 was never designed to defeat the allies. As you say, the weight of numbers.....

The central powers would loose in this timeline. In 1918, nothing could change that.
 
In October 1918 the central powers are already retreating. Isn't it too late for that?



I'm sorry if I don't understand you right, but in October 1918 the central powers have already lost. Plan 19 was never designed to defeat the allies. As you say, the weight of numbers.....

The central powers would loose in this timeline. In 1918, nothing could change that.

What I am saying is that, with this battle over, and the High Seas fleet eliminated as a fighting force, the war is effectivly over. I wouldn't go as far as to say that a CP victory (or at least a status quo peace) is impossible in 1918, but at this point it is a foregone conclusion.

What makes this significant is how it effects the morale and mindsets of the combatants. For instance, do the British claim a disproportionate amount of credit for the victorious conclusion, given that they won the final important battle? But the main impact is probably in germany. Without the Kiel mutinies, one wonders what happens to the internal opposition in the short term; conversely, does the army collapse once news arrives of the defeat? Does this battle and its aftermath remove the "stab in the back" myth from the german national consciousness?
 
With Jellicoe gone, the GF is not as cautious as it was at Jutland. Betty will go charging in again I suspect. Could be a problem for the GF and an advantage of the HSF.

Historically that did not happen. When Beatty became Commander in Chief he was as cautious as Jellicoe. I think he certainly learned something from Jutland, but also he was seeing the whole picture now, ie. the Grand Fleet, as Jellicoe had always seen.
 
Good scenario, although I think the Germans would have to be capable of bringing in a smaller, but more effective force, since they could possibly have fielded the first of the new heavy battlecruisers of the Mackensen class, plus the Hindenburg. (assuming Lützow was still lost as historically at Skagerak in 1916.) Hipper certainly would have left the pre-dreadnought in port, as these were only a burden, when dealing with Beaty's Grand Fleet, even when not reenforced by allied ships.

Most likely, Hipper would try to exployd Germany's superiority in both longer ranged airpower (Gotha operational as well as Zeppelins.) and submarines. By searching in advance of the British, he could have been informed about the enemies possitions, before they sighted eachother. With the 1918 year, the Germans would have had a very large and potentialy decisive number of submarines too, which could sail to patrollines in the North Sea to attack any colum of Dreadnoughts they spotted.

Althought he British would have a very large battlefleet by 1918, it was still too much of the old style, lacking serious ASW protection, as the destroyerforce was mainly an anti torpedoboat force in the first place, as well as an attacking force on its own, rather than capable of hunting down submarines. The best advantage was in its carrierforce, with both HMS Furious and HMS Argus completed and operational. These could in theory strike at the Germans, before they got too close to bring in their accurate gunnery.
 
Why not have this big naval engagement during the last offensives of the war on the Western Front? Morale amongst the crew might be better. Perhaps in 1916/1917 the High Command issues a new code system for the Navy (meaning the British are not reading them).
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
The war WAS over on 10/28/18. Germany was out cold, it just hadn't fallen over yet.

Nothing was going to change the outcome at that date, not in Germany's favor. NOTHING.

The HSF would have been manhandled by the GF, assuming the HSF would even be able to put to sea (being outnumbered 2-1 and being outgunned by far more than that isn't a great formula for success). There was massive AWOL among HSF crews by mid-October, and even more enlisted ranks refusing to obey orders. The HSF would have been exceptionally fortunate to get 60 TOTAL ships out to sea, with almost all of them being light units.

Best case: HSF loses 6-7 capital ships. War isn't ended by the 11/11/18 ceasefire but by the occupation of Germany. Butterflies abound, including no Hitler/Nazi Party.

Worst case: HSF loses 10+ capital ships. Thousands more German and RN/USN sailors die than IOTL. War still ends on OTL schedule with the whole "stabbed in the back" myths allowing the Reich to rise up.
 
Eternity,

This idea is nonsense. In fact, considering the morale and material issues facing the High Seas Fleet in October of 1918, this idea is also ASB.

I'll leave the crippling morale issue aside, even though your POD fails to address it, and write about the material issue instead. Believe me, the materials issue alone is enough to sink the whole idea.

When the operational units of the High Seas Fleet appeared off May Island on November 21, 1918 to begin their internment on Scapa Flow, Beatty ordered them to steam at 17 knots. The Germans replied that they were unable to steam faster than 12 knots because they lacked lubricating oil.

That's the fleet you suggest is going to hair off across the North Sea on some fantastic death ride in a worthless attempt to change the outcome of a war which had already been decided, a force that doesn't have enough lubricating oil to steam above twelve knots.

I got that information from the same book you claim to have used to determine Scheer's fleet numbers, Massie's Castles of Steel. Try as I might, I couldn't find in Massie's book the 150+ ship number you claim. In fact, Massie lists the forces Hipper had available for Plan 19 as "...five battle cruisers, eighteen dreadnought battleships, twelve light cruisers, and ninety two destroyers." and it should noted that the High Seas Fleet steamed to internment at Scapa with fewer ships than that.

There are plenty of actual war changing possibilities listed in Massie's book, so I find it very surprising that you chose the whimsical, dead-on-arrival, and essentially worthless Plan 19 to write up.


Bill
 
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There would have been a lot of dead sailors on both sides, but the battle wouldn't change the outcome of the war.
 
Well, I did read the book a while ago so my apolagies if I have forgotten some important information!

So, if the fleet was unable to sail in October 1918 due to technical problems (Ignore the mutinies and problems with that) then my idea is unfeasable.

New starting place needed. mmm

Doing some quick research and unrestricted submarine warfare was announced in Febuary 1917. At the same time, Germany made some land pushes I believe. WW1 Land is more my Dad's field so I am not sure but I think they did.

Anywho, was the fleet in a practical position to sail in support of unrestricted submarine warfare? Was the damage after Jutland repaired? I know some ships (is SMS Selditz) were still undergoing repairs, but 2x Bayern Class BBs were online and so was the first Mackenstin I think Again not 100%, will check). They would be the core of a powerful fleet, so was it practical to sail in Febuary 1917?
 
Anywho, was the fleet in a practical position to sail in support of unrestricted submarine warfare? Was the damage after Jutland repaired? I know some ships (is SMS Selditz) were still undergoing repairs, but 2x Bayern Class BBs were online and so was the first Mackenstin I think Again not 100%, will check). They would be the core of a powerful fleet, so was it practical to sail in Febuary 1917?

Mackensen was never completed, to the extent that she couldn't even be scuttled at Scapa Flow with the rest of the High Seas Fleet. German additions to the High Seas fleet after Jutland would consist of the battleships Baden and Bayern, as well as the battlecruiser Hindenburg (Although, technically speaking, she would not enter commission until may 1917, and german practices make accelerating that date difficult).

As of Febuary 1917, the High Seas Fleet has on hand 18 Dreadnoughts (Nassau, Posen, Rheinland, Westfalen, Helgoland, Ostfriesland, Thuringen, Oldenburg, Kaiser, Kaiserein, Frederich der Grosse, Konig Albert, Prinzregent Luitpold, Konig, Markgraf, Kronprinz*, Bayern, and Baden), and up to 5 battlecruisers (Von der Tann, Moltke, Seydlitz, Derfflinger**, Hindenburg***).

Against this, the British have 33 Dreadnoughts in service, which I cannot list at this moment due to time constraints, plus nine battlecruisers (Indomitable, Inflexible, New Zealand, Australia, Lion, Princess Royal, Tiger, Renown, Repulse), as well as Glorious and Courageous.

* IOTL damaged in early march 1917 in a collision with the battleship Grosser Kurfurst, and inoperative until may of that year
** IIRC returned to service in late 1916, but I could be mistaken
*** Strictly speaking, shouldn't be on here, as she was not commissioned until may, and german naval practices (see Bayern and Baden) will prevent that date from being moved forward, but she might be available, depending on when the germans sortie, and since I referenced her earlier, it seemed proper to mention her.
 
Well, I did read the book a while ago so my apolagies if I have forgotten some important information!

So, if the fleet was unable to sail in October 1918 due to technical problems (Ignore the mutinies and problems with that) then my idea is unfeasable.

New starting place needed. mmm

Doing some quick research and unrestricted submarine warfare was announced in Febuary 1917. At the same time, Germany made some land pushes I believe. WW1 Land is more my Dad's field so I am not sure but I think they did.

Anywho, was the fleet in a practical position to sail in support of unrestricted submarine warfare? Was the damage after Jutland repaired? I know some ships (is SMS Selditz) were still undergoing repairs, but 2x Bayern Class BBs were online and so was the first Mackenstin I think Again not 100%, will check). They would be the core of a powerful fleet, so was it practical to sail in Febuary 1917?

Eternity

It would be possible for a large fleet to sail at that time but to what purpose? Not really in support of the sub campaign as the Grand Fleet was pretty much independent of the yet to be lauched convoy actions. [Although this could make the latter easier as if there's a big fight and the Germans suffer heavy losses, even if the RN does as well, the probable reduction in any surface threat might release some escort units for trade defence duties.

The HSF doesn't have the range or the geographical position to attack anything important, with the GF guarding the entrence to the North Sea. Only think it might try and do is attack the east coast ports, which it did in 1914-15 but was risky or possible the Channel routes, which might well be suicidal. [Given the narrow waters a big fleet would be at risk from various causes and not have much room to manouver. Also with Dutch neutrality its a long way back from ~Dover to the only safe port and, especially with British code breakthroughs, the Germans are likely to find the GF waiting for them].

On the German new capital ships Bayern joined the HSF just after Jutland and Baden was completed Oct 1916 [which may not include full working up]. None of the Mackenstins were completed by the armistice due to wartime shortages.

If the Germans did sortie into the North Sea at that time it would depend on circumstances. Think there were a couple of occasions OTL when they made probes towards the Norway convoys, although that's probably better done with a BD/LV/Dd force.Might not get an encounter although it if does it could be bloody. Not sure how quickly the RN implemented lessons learnt at Jutland but possibly the sooner the better for the Germans. Also it allows less time for their own moral to be affected and at this time would be before US support could arrive.

If another battle did occur it would probably be similar to Jutland but with higher German casulties. [They were pretty lucky that time and the RN wants revenge. Also while the Germans might get a couple of new BBs entering service the RN has the 5 R class and the last Queen Elizebeth available by this time. [Might be missing one of the R's as I think it was delayed by damage during launching but their getting a lot more firepower arriving than the Germans].

Steve
 
How about this then:

On March 21st 1918 the Germans broke through on the Somme. Knowing that the Allies would need to ship reinforcements from England, the German Navy sorties to attack the light forces in the Channel and pick off some allied merchant ships?

Historically speaking, the British only fielded light forces in the English Channel. No BB/BCs. Only Destroyers and light cruisers backed up by obsolite armoured cruisers.

Surprising really that the German Navy never attacked the channel when it was only defenced by light forces.

Light forces go into the channel to do as much damage as they can... Sink shipping, bombard harbours on both sides etc.

The main battlefleet (Should be repaired and fully functional) covers the East end of the channel should the Grand Fleet appear. Seaplanes and Zeppelins patrol North and newly laid minefields are set along the most likely path that the Grand Fleet will take. Submarines are also present for scouting outside British ports and to try and pick off a few ships.

That is feasable isn't it? The fleet sails in support of land actions and to disrupt the flow of supplies to France. American presence with the Grand Fleet is the following ships USS New York, USS Delaware, USS Florida, USS Wyoming and USS Texas. I believe however that they were all escorting a convoy to Norway at that time. Not 100 on that. 21st march may have been just before the convoy left the UK.
 
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