1919 Rhenish Republic and Anschluss

As mentioned elsewhere I have been reading Richard Watt's fascinating 'The Kings Depart' covering November 1918 to June 1919. One thing which comes out starkly, and in contrast to the usual view, is how WELL Ebert's government did to survive at all. It had an inauspicious start when Schiedemann accidentally declared a republic and invalidated the thin shred of legitimacy that a government based on the personal handover of the office of Imperial Chancellor had. It struggled through severe internal strife to general elections and a constitutional assembly in mid January. It had to put down a Red uprising with an army that disintegrated as it was used. Eventually it came to rely on the Freikorps who then became a force all of their own (e.g. see their Baltic adventures or the White Terror in Munich), and it relied on the Supreme Command in order to be able to accept the treaty of peace that the Supreme Command as a whole was vehemently against. Noske and Groener particuarly come out of it in a new and better light.

But the backdrop of circumstances shows just how badly things could have gone.

The ATL I am proposing sees the collapse of Ebert's government in the January, and a civil war between the Supreme Command relying on the Freikorps in its own right and the Spartacists/Independent Socialists

Amidst this mess, French army demands for the Rhineland become increasingly strong (Foch was always vehement about this, but Clemenceau would probably need a Bolshevist Germany before he moved to this as a practical solution)

Bring about a military victory (the Spartacists were hopelessly divided and the workers generally wanted things better rather than to actually have power). The Freikorps now institute a series of White Terrors, including in Berlin. In addition, a full-blown war with Poland over Posen and Upper Silesia occurs beyond the power of a hastily reconstituted government to control

The internal chaos of Germany had prevented the Baltic Freikorps campaign, and the governments of Estonia and Latvia, lacking even these most dangerous of allies, fall to the Red Army. Belatedly the Allies intervene - as in OTL, but unlike OTL there are no governments to back, no one to channel funding and arms to. With a Red Army assault from the North as well as the South, and fighting variously against Czech, German and Lithuanian forces, Poland begins to crumble

At the Peace Conference, it is realised by Britain and the USA that Poland is not going to be a sufficient bulwark against Bolsehvism. Although French desire to pour aid into Poland is backed, there are no Allied armies to bolster the Poles. This brings about a realisation that a stronger Germany is needed to be a last resort state. Having already given in to French plans for an independent Rhenish Republic during the rule of Bolsehvism in Germany, the Council of Four now reverses a position and agrees to Anscluss between Germany and Austria. One significant factor in addition to the rest is Hungarian Bolshevism under Bela Kun, receiving a boost as the Red Army takes the White Russian and Eastern Galician areas from Poland

The new borders are :-

1. Rhineland constituted as the Rhenish Republic, with the Saar as a free area that will get to vote in plebiscite whether to join France or the RR

2. Upper Silesia remains German, whilst Posen is put to plebiscite

3. The Polish corridor is created, and those areas of E Prussia put to plebiscite in OTL are given to Poland, but Danzig remains German but demilitarised

4. OTL Polish White Russia and E Galicia is retroceded to the Soviet Union

5. OTL Austria becomes part of the German Republic

This is the state of play by mid 1919, with Germany having a government very much a puppet of the Supreme Command

Grey Wolf

Seems plausible. And very nice! Peace treaties and generally war aftermaths are always fun to mess with.

However...
"and those areas of E Prussia put to plebiscite in OTL are given to Poland, but Danzig remains German but demilitarised"
What would be the reasoning behind this "land exchange"?

Susano said:

Seems plausible. And very nice! Peace treaties and generally war aftermaths are always fun to mess with.

However...
"and those areas of E Prussia put to plebiscite in OTL are given to Poland, but Danzig remains German but demilitarised"
What would be the reasoning behind this "land exchange"?

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I was looking at it that the Allies would want to give Poland SOMETHING. Germany keeping Upper Silesia and possibly Posen, as well as Danzig, far outweighs the East Prussian land... BUT I agree it IS debatable as within Germany you would presumably have something like a Noske-Groener government, high regard for the officer corps and Prussian tradition, so the Junker voice might be too loud to lose E Prussian lands. On the other hand if a small Allied force has to be sent to help the Poles against the Red Army it will have to make landfall in Lithuania and will be on hand to ensure that areas of E Prussia can be handed over without German interference

Grey Wolf

Mentioning Lithuania... no offense to our local lithuanian here (forgot his name - is he still arround here) but maybe Lithaunia (plus Memel) can be given to Poland as compensation.
1) Srtonger Poland against Soviet Union
2) Another sea acess, if a very indirect one, for Poland
3) East Prussia is then surrounded by Poland, which could appease them (the Polnish).

Susano said:

Mentioning Lithuania... no offense to our local lithuanian here (forgot his name - is he still arround here) but maybe Lithaunia (plus Memel) can be given to Poland as compensation.
1) Srtonger Poland against Soviet Union
2) Another sea acess, if a very indirect one, for Poland
3) East Prussia is then surrounded by Poland, which could appease them (the Polnish).

Click to expand...

Lithuania is a good option: It gives Poland access to the Baltic, the reason the victorious powers played around with Danzig.

I think the cration of the rhenish republic would lead to a break-away of Bavaria, as there was a strong feeling of dislike for Prussia. and with Prussia going to pieces, I could imagine a secession of Bavaria, especially if Austria is around.

Maybe we could get as much as a return to pre-1866, as the french would surely sponsor every attempt to weaken Germany.

A return to pre-1866 is not possible, and not desriable for the allies in such scenario either, as the purpose of this all was to create a strong germany as bulwark against the USSR.

About Bavaria - if no extremist ideologies come to power, either right or left, then it will not break away. True, the Bavarians still always do their own thing , but that is regionalism, not an own nationalism. The Bavarians are German, and perceive (and perceived) themselves as Germans.
And should a Räterepublic (sovjet republic) or somesuch come to power in Bavaria, Im sure the allies would supress it.

Susano said:

Mentioning Lithuania... no offense to our local lithuanian here (forgot his name - is he still arround here) but maybe Lithaunia (plus Memel) can be given to Poland as compensation.
1) Srtonger Poland against Soviet Union
2) Another sea acess, if a very indirect one, for Poland
3) East Prussia is then surrounded by Poland, which could appease them (the Polnish).

Click to expand...

Poland will only get Lithuania by conquering it, and in this TL I don't see that they have the strength to achieve this. Wilson especially is hardly going to allow this.

I suppose there is a possibility of a Polish-Lithuanian federation (as I created in AFOE) but unless someone forces them into such a union I cannot see the distinct diverse interests on both sides agreeing to it.

Regarding access to the sea, that's what the Fourteen Point said - access. The Germans were initially quite hopeful in OTL that tihs would mean giving Poland special rights in Danzig, custom free, ownership of rail lines into the city etc. It was not seen universally as meaning that the city would be ceded. Of course in OTL it got itself stuck in limbo as a Free City under the League of Nations.

Grey Wolf

Regarding Bavaria, the French were always interested in establishing a separate peace with Bavaria and breaking up Germany. Those most opposed to this included Groener (other Prussian generals tended to be Prusso-centric). The military crushing the Bolshevik regime in the civil war I envisage here would mean that Bavaria sees similar scenes to the 'White Terror' of OTL. Besides, getting rid of Bavaria would invalidate the point of this ATL as you could hardly have an Anschluss with Austria without Bavaria being part of Germany. I could certainly imagine France initially pushing for something, but with the near collapse of Poland and the decision of the Council of Four to allow the Anschluss to create a bulwark against the Red Army, it becomes a moot point. Once Noske and Groener re-establish central control over the country, this bulwark appears to be stable.

The question which DOES occur to me is whether the military protocols in the Treaty of Versailles might be altered to Germany's favour given the uncertain nature of Poland and a more successful Soviet Red Army in the near Eastern lands

Grey Wolf

I think... surely so. Its just a question of who is the lesser evil, and at the moment, the USSR is the more present threat. Besides, you cant have a bulwark with so much military restrictions.

Wilson? Did the USA really have that much power in the negotiations? (Honest Question).
And I think both Lithuania and Poland are in a position that those things can indeed be forced upon them.

Given that the Rhenish Republic is going to be a French client state, and that the bulk of German industry is now shifted to an Eastern focus (i.e. Upper Silesia), then it may be that the French would compromise on some aspects :-

1. Initially Foch proposed a German Army of 200,000 (or was it 250,000) based on conscription and short-term service. His belief was that long-term and professional service is what built up the Prussian ethic, so this rotation would democratise the army and prevent it being a bulwark of conservatism within the German Republic. Lloyd George was horrified by this idea, not because he didn't like the intention but because he didn't believe it would work - what he saw as likely was the Scharnhorst system of having a massive and growing trained reserve that could be rushed to arms in times of need, exactly what he wished to avoid.

Given the need to stand stronger against the East, one might well see the Reichswehr being allowed to attain the 200,000 size as long as all Freikorps units are either absorbed or disbanded. Perhaps a mixture of long-term and short-term service could be agreed upon

2. There is definite scope for a large increase in artillery and allowing of armoured cars, though probably not tanks. If these are based in arsenals in the East, and perhaps the armoured cars are banned from coming within 50km of the Rhine, then this might work

3. Aircraft is problematic, but given the fact that the Soviets have them, it seems a hole in the defence to ban Germany from having ANY at all. One could possibly envisage a size or weight ratio restriction designed to allow only pure fighter aircraft and scouts to be built, and also that they have to be based in the East (East of the Oder ?).

Grey Wolf

Susano said:

A return to pre-1866 is not possible, and not desriable for the allies in such scenario either, as the purpose of this all was to create a strong germany as bulwark against the USSR.

About Bavaria - if no extremist ideologies come to power, either right or left, then it will not break away. True, the Bavarians still always do their own thing , but that is regionalism, not an own nationalism. The Bavarians are German, and perceive (and perceived) themselves as Germans.
And should a Räterepublic (sovjet republic) or somesuch come to power in Bavaria, Im sure the allies would supress it.

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Actually, Groener was from Ludwigsburg (Württemberg).
I have to admit that, if the anschluss is a conditio sine qua non for the thread, Bavaria has to stay in.

But mentioning Bavaria:
The tensions were quite severe, given the anti-federalistic new constitution, the loss of state rights (NO, it´s not a ACW thread ), and the instability.

Interesting point: The Palatinate, then Bavarian and comparatively pro-french, would it have been part of the Rhenisch Republic?

This could bring bavarian politics into DEEP trouble, maybe the idea of the bavarian "ordnungszelle will be pointed out a little further.. towards Berin?"

Regarding Groener the sentence you referred to was supposed to indicate that other (Prussian) generals had a different view than he did as a Wurttemberger but I guess I screwed up the punctuation !

I'll see if I can dig up a map of the German Republic's lander

Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf said:

Regarding Groener the sentence you referred to was supposed to indicate that other (Prussian) generals had a different view than he did as a Wurttemberger but I guess I screwed up the punctuation !

I'll see if I can dig up a map of the German Republic's lander

Grey Wolf

Click to expand...

I didn´t want to show obsession with details, but as I´m from Ludwigsburg myself

Back to Bavaria again, there wasn't actually that much of a separatist ideology. Bavaria under the empire had had more reserved rights than other states - e.g. comparing the fact that Saxony and Wurttemberg also had peace-time control of their armies, Bavaria nevertheless also had a General Staff. In addition, one often sees the fact that the successive regimes in Munich in this period had a Foreign Minister portfolio as indicative of what it wasn't. Under the empire, Bavaria had a foreign minister for it alone of all the German states was permitted to have its own ambassadors abroad - in Vienna, in Saint Petersburg and in the Vatican

Generally the arguments were between Munich and Berlin, a resentment of Prussian influence but without the desire to break away. It was generally assumed that a republic would see less Prussian influence as Prussia's reserved rights would disappear to a large extent - e.g. the head of state was no longer the King of Prussia, the oath of the army would be to the president and the republic not to the King of Prussia.

It also should be noted that the representatives from the various states/lander wrote the constitution themselves, at Weimar (this included a delegation from Austria OTL on the assumption that Anschluss was going to be allowed by the Allies).

Grey Wolf

Can anybody find me a map of the lander of the Weimar Republic ? This page
http://www.flags-by-swi.com/fotw/flags/de.html
describes them and their flags in words, but I would like to SEE it, lol

Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf said:

Can anybody find me a map of the lander of the Weimar Republic ? This page
http://www.flags-by-swi.com/fotw/flags/de.html
describes them and their flags in words, but I would like to SEE it, lol

Grey Wolf

Click to expand...

try this:
http://www.gonschior.de/weimar/Deutschland/index.htm

Every Land is descrribed and also the flags can be seen, if a little bit small

http://www.ieg-maps.uni-mainz.de/gif/d923_a3.htm

unfortuunately, it doesnt show the prussian provinces :/

Thank you very much for those maps. They both answer my questions, and most curious the answer is. With the exception of Thuringia formed out of a lot of smaller states, all the small sovereign states of the old empire remain, even where geographically they make little sense at all. I had assumed some kind of consolidation, especially with regard to places like Lippe or Brunswick. I also see that the Bavarian Palatinate did indeed remain part of the lander of Bavaria... I guess I had been assuming that the post-1945 consolidation of the German states had had less radical but still logical antecedents under Weimar

Grey Wolf

Some reforms hppened during the Weimar time. Waldeck, always administered by Prussia, but not part of it, now finally became a part of it, and Oldenburg lost its southern territory, near the palatinate, to Prussia, too. And I think somewhen in the 30s, when it didnt matter anymore becasue the nazis were about to take over, lol, Oldenburg became part of Prussia, too.