Plausible Survival of the airship

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Eckener

Okay, so I'm a bit of an airship enthusiast, and currently working on a research paper involving the US decission not to sell helium to Germany in the wale of the Hindenburg disaster, which ultimately killed the rigid airship industry. I've been mulling over a few possible senarios, and wanted everyones opinion:

#1: The Graf Zeppelin explodes in a hydrogen fire in 1928 upon it's return to Germany from it's first flight to the US. Hugo Eckener survives, and vowes never to use hydrogen again. What ultimately results is Luftschiffbau Zeppelin and Goodyear Zeppelin combining into Global Zeppelin. The Nazis are not able to nationalize the Zeppelin works unless it wanted to sour relations with the US. BY 1940, GZ Airships make regular flights to Germany, France, England, and Japan, along with Cross country domestic US flights. Eckener flees the country before relations ultimately sour. He will ultimately be a key postwar leader in Germany.

#2: Germany doesn't invade Belgium in WWI, and England ultimately sides with Germany. After the war, American, the UK, and Germany form a grand political alliance. Airship service between NAmerica and Europe is well established by the '30s.

#3: US Sec. Of the Interior H. L. Ickes is killed prior to the Hindenburg Disaster. His successor doesn't block the sale of helium to Germany in 1938.
 

David S Poepoe

Banned
With a name like Eckener how can you NOT be a zeppelin enthusiast.

#2 Not going to work since it involves alot of changes.

#3 Maybe, but the problem is that the zeppelin is still greatly endangered since only the Germans are really using them.

#1 The loss of the Graf Zeppelin will probably just kill the Zeppelin Company right there. What is needed is no fiery crashes. The safety record of the Graf Zeppelin historically didn't save her after the loss of the Hindenburg nor gained her successor airship, Graf Zeppelin II, any love with the public.

What you need are fewer airship crashes, both in Britain and the US, since they had both military and civilian plans for the use of airships.
 

Eckener

Good points. The main thing would be to figure out how to push the Germans to use helium instead of hydrogen before the Nazis take over.

As for the US crashes, Shenandoa was doomed from the start (wasn't designed for what she was used for. And the Akron/Macon were partially lost because of human error.

Eckener's plan had to been to foster the creation of an American passenger service, which could have happened had either the Hindenburg not exploded or if helium had been sold to Germany after the disaster.
 

ddtim

Helios Ra said:

Am I too new to use that joke?
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hmmmmm... NAH! also, FSM FTW! hey, did you hear the official church of FSM explanation for why pirates and ninjas are mortal enemies?
<cowers in anticipation of thousands shouting YES! at him>
 

David S Poepoe

Banned
Eckener said:
Good points. The main thing would be to figure out how to push the Germans to use helium instead of hydrogen before the Nazis take over.

As for the US crashes, Shenandoa was doomed from the start (wasn't designed for what she was used for. And the Akron/Macon were partially lost because of human error.

Eckener's plan had to been to foster the creation of an American passenger service, which could have happened had either the Hindenburg not exploded or if helium had been sold to Germany after the disaster.
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Well, the Hindenburg was designed to use helium. On the other hand the use of the zeppelin as a bomber was known by the public and the idea of a non-flammable airship may still set off some alarms in miltiary circles. The only way to fly non-stop and bomb the US is by helium filled airships.

Goodyear Zeppelin Company builds a few airships for Pan-American and somebody else. The Germans may get access to helium at a later date.
 

Eckener

Okay, so as for saving the initial military program in the US:
-Modifications made to the USS Shenandoah do not occur in 1924, which will ultimately prevent the disasterous crash in 1925. She will instead be turned into a training vessel after the completion of the USS Akron n 1931.
-In 1931, the US Navy establishes its Naval Airship Center, for the training of US crews. 1/2 the staff are from the German airship program. Because of better training, the USS Akron (or her sister ship, the USS Macon) are not lost at sea, and the navy will build more airships.

With the stability of the US Naval Airship Program, the public interest in airships grow, and so Pan American Airways puts in a request with Goodyear Zep to build a passenger airship in 1935. In 1937, the Libertywill launch, and offer regular service between New York and Chicago. In the same year, the german LZ-129 Hindenburg completes its second successful season, and it's sister ship, the LZ-130 Graf Zeppelin II is completed and has it's maiden voyage in October.

...I think with the above mentioned, airships have a genuine chance of survival. The trick is to get reliable, regular passenger service established as normal prior to the outbreak of WWII. This was the narrow window of opportunity that airships had between the two World Wars during which airships could have seriously competed with airplanes. During WWII, airplane technology advances, and in OTL made it possible for regular airplane flights across the atlantic which hadn't been possible during the '20s and '30s. It is possible that had airship travel become fairly normal prior to the war, that there would have still been a demand for it afterwards.
On top of this, airship travel for freight is still practical, as airships can lift more cargo than an airplane and travel faster than surface vessels, making it ideal for freight transport.
And had airships made earlier inroads into passenger travel, it could have kept the edge of being a more comfortable way to travel than the airplane. Either airplanes wouldnt have been used (unlikely, although Harry Turtledove has this happening in his book "The Two Georges"), or airplanes use would have eventually grown, and airships would be used only for certain journeys, or for something similar to cruiseships OTL.
 

mowque

Banned
One issue with the above ideas. So basically you just eliminate all airship disasters. Isn't that ASB? Aren't they prone to disasters? I mean, aren't you changing the very basic concept if you make them 'disaster proof'?
 
Mad Bad Rabbit

Mad Bad Rabbit

Have Royal Dutch Petroleum find the Groeningen natural-gas fields in the late 1920s. The gas from those fields contains ~ 1/3 as much helium as from Texas and Oklahoma, so it should be an adequate European source.

(Might also mean the Netherlands get anschlussed in 1938 instead of Austria, so Germany can suck up their natural gas for synthetic petrol...)
 

Eckener

You wouldn't nessicarily have to get rid of all the previous airship disasters..just one or two of the earlier disasters that killed the program in the US.
In fact, with the proposal above, the Hindenburg could still explode. If the US is already using helium, it would just prove that hydrogen wasn't safe. Germany would ban hydrogen use, as it did in OTL, and either it would get the helium from the US, or the German program would wither and die....and if the US had a successful program, the would be less inclinded to sell helium to Germany. Thus being the case, it would be likely for some of the premier German designers to come to the US program prior to the war...which would further strengthen a US program.

With the Graf Zeppelin, the Germans had proved that a structurally sound airship could be built. America's problems had all either been structural (USS Shenandoah), or human error (the USS Akron/Macon). The German build USS Los Angeles never crashed...
 
Mr_ Bondoc

Mr_ Bondoc

Throughout the late 1960s and 1970s, there was talk of a "Second Age of Airships". The idea was that (c.1976) they could serve as cargo transports, especially in coastal cities. They would have helicopter frames attatched to help maintain stability...

Another idea (c.1968) was the creation of "flying universities", whereby blimps would be used to transport students to various sites around the world (e.g. Amazon Rain Forest) for research and study. This was also considered as an eco-friendly means to travel between "planned communities" (e.g. Arcosanti, et al.)...
 

Eckener

Mad Bad Rabbit said:
Have Royal Dutch Petroleum find the Groeningen natural-gas fields in the late 1920s. The gas from those fields contains ~ 1/3 as much helium as from Texas and Oklahoma, so it should be an adequate European source.

(Might also mean the Netherlands get anschlussed in 1938 instead of Austria, so Germany can suck up their natural gas for synthetic petrol...)
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That's an idea that I hadn't thought of. Still, the problem is initially that the German's, including Hugo Eckener, believed that hydrogen could be used safely. It isn't until the crash of the British R101 in 1930 that Eckener's views begin to change, and he considers the use of helium for the LZ-129.
 

Eckener

And one other possibility would be for the R38, which would have been the US ZR2, not to crash on August 23, 1921. This would require for her to have been built differently, as it was a structural failure that brought her down. Had this crash not occured, America would have had an earlier start into airship development and use...though it could have had an adverse effect on Germany (the loss of the R38 made America all the more eager for the LZ-126, USS Los Angeles, which was delivered to the United States in 1924...the first non-stop transatlantic crossing by aircraft...3 years before Lindbergh's flight in 1927.
 

David S Poepoe

Banned
mowque said:
One issue with the above ideas. So basically you just eliminate all airship disasters. Isn't that ASB? Aren't they prone to disasters? I mean, aren't you changing the very basic concept if you make them 'disaster proof'?
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Airships are just as 'disaster proof' as aircraft. On the whole, before the loss of the Hindenburg, there are relatively few civilian lives lost in airship accidents than in aircraft crashes. One would have to say that their high profile accidents are more what did the airships in. Without these accidents its likely that they could continue on as a viable transportation means, at least until the advent of trans-oceanic aircraft.
 
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