Failure before Moscow a Red/BW Joint TL

[Whumbly]

I beleive that the Japanese would actually side with the allies in the war. Considering that Japan is a monarchy and has just seen the USSR betray its so called allies I think that it quite plausable. I can see it actually noigate in a postion of strength as Japan has quite a large chunk of the Pacific.

To convice the Americans to ally with Japan will probaly take an assassination successful or not of the Vice President as FDR's VPs tended to be anti-communist it is plauseable as the USSR will want to keep the USA out of the war.

[Peter]

Yes, Japan changing sides with US pacific forces being shifted to China would be cool.

[FletcherofSaltoun]

Originally Posted by AustinMontreal

I'm sorry but this is completely idiotic. The fact remains that the Russians were no where near ready to face the German Warmachine after Operation Barbossa and I honestly believe that if the Germans had tried to take Moscow, instead of foolishly laying siege to the city, they would have completely taken Moscow and the surrender of Russian Forces would soon follow.

I'm sorry but Alan Clark, who as much as I disliked his politics, has, I suspect, researched the subject in far greater depth than yourself was of the opinion that should the Germans had gone for Moscow then they would have not only been outflanked by the Russians but would have been destroyed in the centre.

Is someone who wrote a few books on the eastern war in detail more daft than you on the subject?

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

Originally Posted by AustinMontreal

and I honestly believe that if the Germans had tried to take Moscow, instead of foolishly laying siege to the city, they would have completely taken Moscow and the surrender of Russian Forces would soon follow.

[FletcherofSaltoun]

Originally Posted by Wyragen-TXRG4P

Probably the reaction I should have given!

[BlairWitch749]

Austin,

By the end of operation Typhoon the German panzer divisions were well below 25% strength in tanks and their infantry regiments were being frozen in place by the brutality of the Russian winter. Moscow is a huge city... bigger than Stalingrad with huge concrete buildings that won't be destroyed by air strikes or light artillery. The Germans by the winter of 1941 had no fresh infantry reserves nor enough heavy artillery to do more than break into small parts of the city even if they reached it.

The only reason the Germans were able to not be completely overrun in the winter of 1941 was because of the strength of the Oka river line which was built up by army group center whilst they were waiting for Guderian's 2nd Panzer Army to finish its mission in the Ukraine. All forces in front of the Oka line after Typhoon were either pushed back to the line, forced to surrender or destroyed by Zhukov's great winter counter attack (otl)

Red and I have had the Germans pour 9 divisions across the Moscow-Volga Canal and had Zhukov attack on the wings instead of right up the middle which bypassed the Oka line and put an exausted and overextended Army Group Center in a huge cauldron... this was highly probable with only the slight pod of Leeb forgoing his last ditch attack at Leningrad

[Augustus Montes]

I would like to apologize to Red and BlairWitch. Should have realized you guys probably know a lot more than I did on the specifics of the war. Please forgive me for acting like an idiot

[CCA]

I like!

Looking forward to this TL's version of Sealion.

[BlairWitch749]

You are Russia's favorite son (Chapter 21)

Western Europe April 1943

Zhukov's unstoppable armored columns had run the allies out to sea and forced a humiliating repeat of the Dunkirk evacuation from three years before. His forces had been stung by allied airpower and from strikes from the warships but pyraich victories didn't bother Zhukov especially since he treated infantry as mere digits. He now only faced the disorganized remains of a few free french divisions between himself and the Pyranees. Allied bombers were proving quite a nuisance as they operated well over 20,000 feet at which Soviet fighters were not particularly effective. However Zhukov hoped he could achieve his remaining objectives before they could truly make their presence felt and the Vozd had a plan to disrupt the airfields in Britain anyway.


Russia's favorite son and the author of her Victories Marshal Zhukov

Stalin had been secretly supplying weapons and intelligence to the Irish Republican Army for months with elaborate promises of support and liberation of their northern provinces after the war. Whilst Zhukov reorganized his tank armies for a decisive strike down the Rhone valley Stalin unleashed terror on the British homeland. RAF and American airfields all over the southern part of the country found themselves being bombed and mortared whenever darkness came. Security sweeps following these attacks were only partially effective as the cell structure of the IRA made it hard to break up their task forces. Hundreds of sorties were lost as bombers were destroyed or damaged or runways disabled or critical personel murdered. Churchill ordered draconian Marshal law against the Irish bombers which they were able to circumvent easily and this also caused severe political friction throughout the country fatally weakening Churchill's hold on power.


An RAF barracks stuck by mortars of the IRA

At the same time Stalin benefitted from a stroke of luck (the pun not being lost on Stalin or the STAVKA) as the longtime American President Franklin Roosevelt strained by the renewed fighting and failure suffered a stroke and died on April 12th 1943. His successor, Henry Wallace was a man who had been friendly to the Soviet Union. The speaches Wallace gave right after his inauguration were music to his ears.

America has made a terrible mistake. We allied ourselves to the fascists of Spain and Germany... the very evil we hoped to destroy... why wouldn't uncle Joe push us all out then if we were cooperating with the countries directly responsible for millions of deaths of his citizens. I say to you good honest working Americans that the Soviet Union isn't our enemy... we have but one on the islands of Japan who so brutally attacked our fleet two years ago. My intention is to open up peace talks with uncle Joe so that we may turn the full might of our war effort against the basterdly empire of Japan.


President Wallace reached out to Stalin for peace.

Stalin was overjoyed as this new president was basically offering him a blank check to conquer all of Europe and smash his most immediate enemies. Wallace appointed a large number of progressives (hard left socialists and even outright communists including Alger Hiss) to his cabinet and important posts. Representatives from both sides met in Seattle Washington and a de facto peace treat was announced that Stalin would no longer attack forces of the United States and he would remain neutral in their battle with Japan. Stalin was forced to scrap plans he had to offer the Japanese 3 Russian tank corps to attack into Burma for this was a far better strategic outcome to have America focus its attentions elsewhere.


Stalin was overjoyed with America's new socialist leaning president's peace offer

The entire might of the American war effort including all personel assigned to England was sent against the empire of Japan. Wallace broke the power of the officer corps by forming soldier and sailors councils which on top of his far too friendly relationship with Stalin made a number of long term democrats break from him and splintered the party into progressives and democrats. The mass of the American Navy quickly turned every Japanese island possession into an isolated outpost and mass carrier raids inflicted grievous losses on the Japanese fleet and home islands.

Churchill's government after 4 years of war also fell apart particular the alliance with Spain and the use of Nazi troops had become extremely controversial. Clement Atlee took over a splintering coalition to which the Americans it seemed wanted no part and he too accepted a rather simple peace with Stalin where he agreed to respect the British empire's territorial integrity (minus Northern Ireland) and would stay neutral in their quarrel with Japan. This did however grant him a free hand to mold the continent in the image he and Lenin had dreamed of.


Attlee had no choice but accept a Soviet dominated Europe

Whilst Zhukov's forces completed their total occupation of France, Stalin directed new and immaginative warplans be developed to crush the fascists in Spain and Italy. He also had built up two tank armies in Manchuria that had some other scores to settle

to be continued...

your thoughts?

[Astrodragon]

Oh dear...Britsih air power defeated by the might of the IRA....

The IRA was (and has always been) a singularly unsuccessful operation, mainly because its always been infiltrated by the Britis security services. I suppose a few attacks might work, after which Britain will clamp down (and, if considered necessary, lean heavily on the irish govenment as well).

Draconian action against the IRA will have plentiful support in the UK, where people dont LIKE the IRA....the idea it will weaken Churchill is ASB.

Is the IRA riding tame sealions as well?

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

Oh dear...Britsih air power defeated by the might of the IRA....

The IRA was (and has always been) a singularly unsuccessful operation, mainly because its always been infiltrated by the Britis security services. I suppose a few attacks might work, after which Britain will clamp down (and, if considered necessary, lean heavily on the irish govenment as well).

Draconian action against the IRA will have plentiful support in the UK, where people dont LIKE the IRA....the idea it will weaken Churchill is ASB.

Is the IRA riding tame sealions as well?

This is an IRA built on a communist cell structure well supported by a major industrial power. These were hit and run/ fade missions against the airfields. shoot and scoot would have been effective enough in small numbers... those airfields were quite congested a few mortar rounds could do untold mischief

Churchill had untold enemies amongst the socialsts and harder left liberals. He was a notorious strike breaker and had sided with Franco and said rather pleasant things about Mussolini before the war. Think of this as the culmination

[The Red]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

Oh dear...Britsih air power defeated by the might of the IRA....

If you think that the RAF is composed of a few airfields then yes they did.

We arent trying to say they busted the RAF, these raids were a pinprick however the potential propaganda value is massive.

[LordIreland]

A very interesting timeline. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing where you go with it.

Only one minor quible, you stated that the USSR was churning out 2000 T34s a month in early 42. When in OTL, with lendlease in full flow, Soviet production peaked at 900 a month. That being said, given the huge strategic encirclement and subsequent destruction of Army Group Centre, I am not convinced that the outcome would have changed significantly.

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by LordIreland

A very interesting timeline. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing where you go with it.

Only one minor quible, you stated that the USSR was churning out 2000 T34s a month in early 42. When in OTL, with lendlease in full flow, Soviet production peaked at 900 a month. That being said, given the huge strategic encirclement and subsequent destruction of Army Group Centre, I am not convinced that the outcome would have changed significantly.

this is with the donets basin and the ukraine recaptured much much earlier (significantly improving production capability) and little diversion to the KV chassis type forgive me for not being descriptive enough originally, but that is how the numbers came to be

[chris N]

Let me say that I totally disagree with your having a President Wallace. the Only way that this would happen is if FDR died in office. Wallace was not liked by a lot of the democrat party officals. Should he come to office there could be a major revolt by not only conservative southern Democrats but even democrats from the North. I would have expected Alfred E Smith to lead the democrat move against Wallace. You could very well see the Senate refusing to approve any of his appointees. There would also be a strong negative reaction in the country to the Russian attack on the western allies. It could see a Republican Landslide in the Congressional elections or at the least a conservative majority in the Senate.

In the UK I am not at all sure that Atlee would be able to make a peace with the Soviets as many would consider it a selling out of the people that had ought with Britain- French, Dutch, Belgian, Poles, and Czechs.

There were also a lot more than 12 allied divisions available in western Europe in 1942. The US alone had built up a force in the UK of 6-12 divisions and then there were the Canadians and British divisions. Thus it is probable that the Western allies would have had at least 24+ divisions to which would be added the 12 Spanish divisions and the Rearmed French Divisions from Norht Africa. The US automobile industry would have been cranking out tanks and other vehicles like crazy. Thus we might have seen the allies have had as many as 50 divisions in Western Europe, Remember the British would not have the manpower crisis until 1944.

Churchill could very well have won the election. The allies would have also had a fairly large air force in the West and this could have inflicted heavy damage to the Russian Army and Air Force.

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by chris N

Let me say that I totally disagree with your having a President Wallace. the Only way that this would happen is if FDR died in office. Wallace was not liked by a lot of the democrat party officals. Should he come to office there could be a major revolt by not only conservative southern Democrats but even democrats from the North. I would have expected Alfred E Smith to lead the democrat move against Wallace. You could very well see the Senate refusing to approve any of his appointees. There would also be a strong negative reaction in the country to the Russian attack on the western allies. It could see a Republican Landslide in the Congressional elections or at the least a conservative majority in the Senate.

In the UK I am not at all sure that Atlee would be able to make a peace with the Soviets as many would consider it a selling out of the people that had ought with Britain- French, Dutch, Belgian, Poles, and Czechs.

There were also a lot more than 12 allied divisions available in western Europe in 1942. The US alone had built up a force in the UK of 6-12 divisions and then there were the Canadians and British divisions. Thus it is probable that the Western allies would have had at least 24+ divisions to which would be added the 12 Spanish divisions and the Rearmed French Divisions from Norht Africa. The US automobile industry would have been cranking out tanks and other vehicles like crazy. Thus we might have seen the allies have had as many as 50 divisions in Western Europe, Remember the British would not have the manpower crisis until 1944.

Churchill could very well have won the election. The allies would have also had a fairly large air force in the West and this could have inflicted heavy damage to the Russian Army and Air Force.

Wallace succeeded Roosevelt who died from a stroke so he didn;t have to face a general election. Keep in mind the British still had forces tied up in north africa and in the pacific. some of those american and british divisions in place in 1942 were territorials or national guard units with little training and combat experience. the sherman also didn't start getting produced in any significant quantities till the end of 1942 and it didn't hit its stride in production till 1944.

The airforce is successful to a degree but again it didn't have anywhere near its 1944 level of effectiveness and area bombing in france against the russians kills friendly civilians

[Whumbly]

I can see some of the more anti-communist Americans lanching a polictial coup or military (whichever one you prefer)

I think that Italy and Spain will try and raise blue corps or volunteers from other countries (UK, America, France and other neutral countries) to fight aganist the Soviet Red Army on the idea of Anti-Communist not Pro-Factism.

I think that Japan might be willing for a nogatited peace with the Americans in exchange for Japanese Troops aiding China against Mao's Communist Party with I think will have recived Soviet aid by now.

Also what is the State of the Free French Forces in it's terriorty in Africa?

[chris N]

It would seem that it would be very likely that the Conservative and moderate democrats in the House of Representatives joined by the Republican would introduce a Bill of impeachment and pass it. It would then go to the Senate where it is highly likely that Wallace would be convicted and removed from office. The Speaker of the House would then become President.
The attack by the Soviets would cause a Red Scale to rival that of the 1920's and a lot of people like Alger Hiss would be removed from government and tried fro treason.

I have little doubt that what you said regarding the production of the Sherman tank is correct but once the Soviets launched their attack on the West everything would change. Ny this I mean there would be a demand to speed up production. There were US divisions that had arrived in early 1942 that would have been constantly training and the British forces were still expanding in 1942 including a Canadian Corp.

Air power would be the Key with the vast Bomber force and the arrival of American P-38 and the P-51 would also be arriving in limited numbers.

If anything the attack by the Soviets might very well rally the people around Churchill and discredit the Labor party, especially its left wing.

[chris N]

Regarding the German army I have some doubts aout your crushing of it so easily. The Germans had an edge over the Russians in that all of their tanks were equipped with radios. They also had the ability to improvise much more than did the Soviets forming into battle groups.

The 75mm pak at gun would have appeared much sooner and would have caused great loses to the Russian tank force. Remember even in OTL the majority of Russian tank production was NOT the T-34 but the lighter BT-7, T-60 and T-70 and it is likely that that would be the case here too.

The Germans did have defenses in the east to fall back into. The OST wall esisted on both eastern Germany and Prussia. Hitler had restored fortifications in the East when he first came to power. This would have bought the Germans time. Time to bring the 88mmpak ATG and the Tiger 1. It might have also seen the appearance of the Skoda T-26 medium tank, which would have been a match for the T-34.

[David Floyd]

Here's my problem (and, BTW, great TL up to this point):

Why would the US, even with Wallace in office, offer peace to the Soviet Union, after the Soviets basically "sneak attacked" them, killing far more US military personnel than the Pearl Harbor attack? Given the US response and attitude towards Japan after the Pearl Harbor sneak attack, why would this be different?

Oh, I agree that Wallace would have wanted to - the man was the closest thing to a communist that we've ever had as a POTUS/VEEP. However, the country wouldn't have let him, IMHO, simply seek peace with Stalin, any more than the country would have let FDR actively seek war with Germany prior to Pearl Harbor. I can easily see Wallace being impeached, following his far-left Cabinet appointments (including his Veep) not being approved by the Senate, with the result of the Speaker of the House - Sam Rayburn (D-TX)- assuming office.