Failure before Moscow a Red/BW Joint TL

[BlairWitch749]

Brilliant ending Red... I hope you all enjoyed the joint venture and felt the ending was just

[chris N]

To be honest I think that the Russians 's victories in this whole time line were unrealistic.. Politically Great Britain could never have allowed the Russians to do what they did. Atlee would not have become Prime Minister. He was deputy Prime Minister in Name ONLY. A member of the Conservative party would have become Prime Minister.

The allies could have after their victory in Italy chosen to attack in a lot of areas- Spain ( either from Portugal or from the sea) , France- either across the channel of in the South, The Balkans or Norway. Russia could not defend everywhere. Next Rayburn would have been a lot tougher than you have him. The man is a Texan and would not settle for what you have proposed.

[The Red]

Originally Posted by chris N

To be honest I think that the Russians 's victories in this whole time line were unrealistic.

How exactly? The Germans were wrecked after being so overextended and could never recover after the collapse of Army Group Centre especially with Sledgehammer. Afterwards the Soviets were superior in the early battles were superior to their enemies in both numbers and technology, at least on the ground, thus their victories are not that implausible.

Originally Posted by chris N

Politically Great Britain could never have allowed the Russians to do what they did.

With America out of the war what choice did they have?

Originally Posted by chris N

He was deputy Prime Minister in Name ONLY. A member of the Conservative party would have become Prime Minister.

He would still have automatically become Prime Minister and without a vote of no confidence he couldn't be moved.

Originally Posted by chris N

The allies could have after their victory in Italy chosen to attack in a lot of areas- Spain ( either from Portugal or from the sea) , France- either across the channel of in the South, The Balkans or Norway. Russia could not defend everywhere.

The allies couldn't attack everywhere either, in France and Spain Soviet forces were too powerful, attacking the Balkans would be a bloodbath and attcking Norway would likely become one as well, a mix of mountainous terrain and neutral Sweden makes it very easy to defend.

Also the peace terms Rayburn is offered are very generous, the Soviets are essentially willing to go back behind the Weser, and accomplishment which would have taken years and millions of casualties to pull off.

[chris N]

It is very likely that the Conservative party would not have agreed to Atlee becoming Prime Minister and would have voted no confidence. The King would then have the choice of asking Atlee to form a government, which he couldn't, ask the conservatives to form a government or call for new elections with a caretaker government. The caretaker government would not be run by Atlee.

True the Western allies couldn't attack everywhere, inless they mounted raids and then an invasion but the Soviets would have to defend everywhere.

This could mean an invasion in the south of France and an invasion from Portugal. The allies would have the advantage of Seapower allowing them the choice of where to strike.

Red you have overestimated the ability of the Red Army and underestimated the ability of the western powers to fight. Wallace would never had the ability to do a lot of the stuff that you have let him do. He was very unpopular when he becaome FDR's running mate.

Well enough said.

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by chris N

It is very likely that the Conservative party would not have agreed to Atlee becoming Prime Minister and would have voted no confidence. The King would then have the choice of asking Atlee to form a government, which he couldn't, ask the conservatives to form a government or call for new elections with a caretaker government. The caretaker government would not be run by Atlee.

True the Western allies couldn't attack everywhere, inless they mounted raids and then an invasion but the Soviets would have to defend everywhere.

This could mean an invasion in the south of France and an invasion from Portugal. The allies would have the advantage of Seapower allowing them the choice of where to strike.

Red you have overestimated the ability of the Red Army and underestimated the ability of the western powers to fight. Wallace would never had the ability to do a lot of the stuff that you have let him do. He was very unpopular when he becaome FDR's running mate.

Well enough said.

The situation in Italy provided a unique tactical opportunity to encircle and smash a Russian front but that sort of logic doesn't apply in other theaters. France has numerous highly defensible river lines (Aisne Seine Meuse) which would have allowed the Soviets and their communist allies to conduct a brutal long drawn out defensive campaign that Britain certainly didn't have the manpower to overcome.

The point became that after a nice sharp victory in Italy the allies were not in a position of direct intervention that wouldn't result in hundreds of thousands if not millions of deaths. Spain and Portugal again fall into the category of easily defensible terrain.

To get the Soviet Union to get back behind the Weser is no small victory after they have come so far... the allies got off rather lucky since Zhukov didn't smash the nationalist chinese or the middle east

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

How is it going to look like in 2010? Red flag over the White House?

[The Red]

Originally Posted by Wyragen-TXRG4P

How is it going to look like in 2010? Red flag over the White House?

That's for the reader to decide.

[Mirza Khan]

Good, well-written TL! Kudos!

If I must point out a flaw though, the ending was a bit depressing. I'd love to see a TL with this POD where the Russians are less successful in 42 and 43, the allies consolidate their position a little bit more, and Rommel still surrenders to the west with the remnants of the German army in late 43 or early 44, and the Russkies still stab the Allies in the back. And in 1947 or 1948, Patton and Rommel march together into Red Square.

Now THAT would be crazy awesome.

(Sorry for the Necromancy btw-this TL was linked in another thread, and I was originally going to comment in that thread but I didn't want to pull it off topic).

[The Red]

Originally Posted by Mirza Khan

Good, well-written TL! Kudos!

If I must point out a flaw though, the ending was a bit depressing. I'd love to see a TL with this POD where the Russians are less successful in 42 and 43, the allies consolidate their position a little bit more, and Rommel still surrenders to the west with the remnants of the German army in late 43 or early 44, and the Russkies still stab the Allies in the back. And in 1947 or 1948, Patton and Rommel march together into Red Square.

Now THAT would be crazy awesome.

(Sorry for the Necromancy btw-this TL was linked in another thread, and I was originally going to comment in that thread but I didn't want to pull it off topic).

Personally, I think there are too many TL's were the Germans make a peace with the west and they team up to crush the Soviet aggressors, there should be at least one TL where the separate peace with the west by a military junta ends in disaster.

[LeoXiao]

I'm bumping this since it's such an awesome TL. I personally think the Soviets would've settled for all of Germany, and that they wouldn't have atom bombs in 1947 (more like 1950s), but the story was very entertaining. I'm interested in seeing what kind of USSR evolves under Zhukov, but this TL is over...

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

I'm bumping this since it's such an awesome TL. I personally think the Soviets would've settled for all of Germany, and that they wouldn't have atom bombs in 1947 (more like 1950s), but the story was very entertaining. I'm interested in seeing what kind of USSR evolves under Zhukov, but this TL is over...

This TL was a draft in a way, red and I are both much more developed writers, and have more organized throughts on this matter.

he is busy chasing around cute coeds at uni... and me I have a lot of projects on the front and back burner, and a new baby; so failure before moscow 2 is still some time in the future

glad you enjoyed

[Yelnoc]

Just chewed through this timeline tonight. Well done Blairwitch and The Red!