Plausability Check: Domesticate Animals and Disease

In my TL Horses of Turtle Island (need to change that name), I want the Natives to domesticate more than just dogs, horses, llamas, alpaca's, guinea pigs, and turkeys.
I've found three possible contenders for domestication.

Heath Hens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heath_Hen : Extinct now, but once extremely common in New England. From some of the sites I've checked out (not just wiki), it was easy to hunt due to having little fear of humans. It may be possible to domesticate.

Blue Wing Teal Duck http://www.greatnorthern.net~dyenative_north_american_teal.htm : A small dabbling duck, it is widespread and migrates between North and South America. It is apparently easy to tame, and people raise them in aviaries. With their large numbers a more sedentary group of Natives may attempt to raise them.

Capybara http://aa.yhs.search.yahoo.com/avg/search?fr=yhs-avg&type=yahoo_avg_hs2-tb-web_aa&p=INTA+Delta : This is one of the largest rodents in the world. People keep them as exotic pets, although they recommend that males be neutered. They grow to about 50kg, and are pack animals averaging 10 to 20 animals, although some have reported groups of 100. The meat and hide is extremely popular in South America. Some cattle ranchers keep wild populations on their farms and use them as a secondary source of income. The animals will stay in their territory with few problems. Apparently there is at least one attempt to domesticate them. So these may be able to be used as pigs, good food but little other use.

Now, does anyone know if these are totally impossible to domesticate? I don't want them for riding animals or much of anything other then sources of eggs, meat and feathers. I'd rather be told I'm totally off base here than in my timeline.
Also with potentially nine domestic animals, widespread agriculture, and larger more connected cities, would this cause the Native Americans to be less susceptible to European diseases. I'm not talking about being totally immune or anything, but not such virgin territory. If they catch a North American flu from their ducks and heath hens, it may help them build up a minor immunity to European flu's. Same thing with dysentery, and a few other illnesses. So instead of death rates between 50% and 90%, depending on the sources, its only 30-60%.

Any thoughts and knowledge is greatly appreciated. And if you would like more links I have a few more, just ask.

Domoviye said:

In my TL Horses of Turtle Island (need to change that name), I want the Natives to domesticate more than just dogs, horses, llamas, alpaca's, guinea pigs, and turkeys.
I've found three possible contenders for domestication.

Click to expand...

Domoviye said:

Heath Hens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heath_Hen : Extinct now, but once extremely common in New England. From some of the sites I've checked out (not just wiki), it was easy to hunt due to having little fear of humans. It may be possible to domesticate.

Click to expand...

Given that they are prairie chickens (Tympanuchus spp), I doubt they'd be very domesticable. Certainly, the existing prairie grouse are very susceptible to human disturbance. Heath Hens seem to have more tolerance for humans, but if they were easy to breed in captivity, you'd think people would have succeeded in doing that as the species was nearing extinction.

Domoviye said:

Blue Wing Teal Duck http://www.greatnorthern.net~dyenative_north_american_teal.htm : A small dabbling duck, it is widespread and migrates between North and South America. It is apparently easy to tame, and people raise them in aviaries. With their large numbers a more sedentary group of Natives may attempt to raise them.

Click to expand...

Why not go with Mallard ducks. They are more common, larger, and provably domesticable (that's what European domestic ducks are).

Also, don't forget
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscovy_Duck
which is a New World bird that has been successfully domesticated.

Geese: (probably not)
while there are some references to 'domesticated' Branta geese (Canada, Cackling, Nene, Brant), it seems that the only way to actually keep them captive is to 'pinion' them (ie part of their wings cut off). Nor do I see any references to Chen geese domestication (blue, snow, ross's, etc). The Eurasian genus Anser seems to be far more domesticable (Anser anser, the greylag, and Anser cygnoides have both been widely domesticated). The only Anser species in North America is Anser albifrons (Greater white-fronted goose), which, unfortunately for domestication, breeds only in the high arctic.

Domoviye said:

Capybara http://aa.yhs.search.yahoo.com/avg/search?fr=yhs-avg&type=yahoo_avg_hs2-tb-web_aa&p=INTA+Delta : This is one of the largest rodents in the world. People keep them as exotic pets, although they recommend that males be neutered. They grow to about 50kg, and are pack animals averaging 10 to 20 animals, although some have reported groups of 100. The meat and hide is extremely popular in South America. Some cattle ranchers keep wild populations on their farms and use them as a secondary source of income. The animals will stay in their territory with few problems. Apparently there is at least one attempt to domesticate them. So these may be able to be used as pigs, good food but little other use.

Click to expand...

No clue.


If you want diseases, Hanta viruses are endemic in mice in much of the US, would likely infect guinea pigs, and are currently kind of nasty when they cross over to humans.

Dathi THorfinnsson said:

Given that they are prairie chickens (Tympanuchus spp), I doubt they'd be very domesticable. Certainly, the existing prairie grouse are very susceptible to human disturbance. Heath Hens seem to have more tolerance for humans, but if they were easy to breed in captivity, you'd think people would have succeeded in doing that as the species was nearing extinction.

Click to expand...

That was my suspicion as well. I was hoping someone had more info and could help me out with them. So thanks.

Why not go with Mallard ducks. They are more common, larger, and provably domesticable (that's what European domestic ducks are).

Also, don't forget
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscovy_Duck
which is a New World bird that has been successfully domesticated.

Geese: (probably not)
while there are some references to 'domesticated' Branta geese (Canada, Cackling, Nene, Brant), it seems that the only way to actually keep them captive is to 'pinion' them (ie part of their wings cut off). Nor do I see any references to Chen geese domestication (blue, snow, ross's, etc). The Eurasian genus Anser seems to be far more domesticable (Anser anser, the greylag, and Anser cygnoides have both been widely domesticated). The only Anser species in North America is Anser albifrons (Greater white-fronted goose), which, unfortunately for domestication, breeds only in the high arctic.

Click to expand...

I thought the Mallard in North America was a different breed that may not be domesticated. I'll have to look it over again.
And I did forget the Muscovy. I mentioned it in my timeline already, but forgot it here.
As for geese, yeah I thought about them, but found the same problem you mentioned. So no geese for the Natives.

If you want diseases, Hanta viruses are endemic in mice in much of the US, would likely infect guinea pigs, and are currently kind of nasty when they cross over to humans.

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Thanks, but I already have a bunch of diseases that will be introduced, and Hanta is one of them. I'm more curious if the diseases they get from the animals they do have could provide some immunity against similar European ones. Its been a while since I casually studied diseases as a teenager.

Once more thanks for the help.

Domoviye said:

I thought the Mallard in North America was a different breed that may not be domesticated. I'll have to look it over again.

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It's certainly the same species. Moreover, there don't seem to be many populations that reach the 'subspecies' difference level. No doubt there are differences, but I still think that picking a species which has provably domesticable populations is better than picking one that MIGHT be....

Just my thought.

Umm... You might want to have the domestication happen with a sedentary (non-migratory) population. It's hard to domesticate a bird if it flies away on you! (I wonder if that's what your 'non-domesticable North American breed' comment represents.) Once you've got those, you can move north.

Dathi THorfinnsson said:

It's certainly the same species. Moreover, there don't seem to be many populations that reach the 'subspecies' difference level. No doubt there are differences, but I still think that picking a species which has provably domesticable populations is better than picking one that MIGHT be....

Just my thought.

Umm... You might want to have the domestication happen with a sedentary (non-migratory) population. It's hard to domesticate a bird if it flies away on you! (I wonder if that's what your 'non-domesticable North American breed' comment represents.) Once you've got those, you can move north.

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Reread some of my websites. You're right, they're is no real big subspecies in North America. So they could be domesticated. Since it has been domesticated its better to use it than pull another species out of my ass.
And my confusing comment meant that some sub species can't be domesticated. The North American Great horn sheep is almost identical to the European sheep but is too solitary to domesticate. I thought it was the same with the Mallard. Thanks for proving me wrong.

If you want to go with a blue-winged teal, you may want have that happen near New Orleans

http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Blue-winged_Teal/id

Note that there aren't many areas where the duck is year-round, and as I said in the last post, you probably want a non-migratory population to start with.

Huh. So instead of a chicken and duck, they get two ducks. I like it. And many many thanks for the help.

Edit: I love that website. Extremely useful.

This is an interesting thread... Just today as I was walking past my university's pond, looking at the invasive Canada geese that have taken up residence alongside the ducks, geese, and swans that already live there, I was wondering what the plausibility would be of domestication. One one hand, they can become somewhat dependent on human settlement, but on the other hand, they're very defensive and have a strong migration instinct.

I've thought the same thing, but like you said they can be very defensive. Combined with the migration habit, and it seems like too much work to make it worthwhile.

Did you take into account the stingless bee of the Yucatan? I'm not sure that it actually counted as a truly domesticated bee in the way that the Old World honey bee did, but the Mayans were beekeeping for thousands of years.

Dathi THorfinnsson said:

Given that they are prairie chickens (Tympanuchus spp), I doubt they'd be very domesticable. Certainly, the existing prairie grouse are very susceptible to human disturbance. Heath Hens seem to have more tolerance for humans, but if they were easy to breed in captivity, you'd think people would have succeeded in doing that as the species was nearing extinction.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't write them off so easy. The thing with domestication is that the animal population has to survive long enough to be domesticated. A lot of domesticateable animals get hunted out in the areas where domestication might have taken place. Surviving species in the area tend to have traits that allow them to resist hunting, but which also make domestication difficult. To domesticate a species, you need literally a borderline area where the species is able to replenish or maintain its numbers so that it doesn't go locally extinct before it can be domesticated.

I'd say its possible.

As for disease pathogens, remember that with the possible exception of the ducks and geese, the North and South American animal populations were isolated even longer than the Indians.

Remember the great American interchange of a few million years ago? I think it's significant that the South American animals that made the most headway were the ones with the least genetic affiliation with invader species - the sloths, glyptodonts and armadillos and the terror birds. I suspect that at least a part of the reason for the south american extinctions was not just influx of new species, but of transmissible diseases the species carried.

That said, I didn't notice the bison keeling over when cows and sheep were introduced. But then, Bison were big, nasty and aggressive, and likely cows and sheep were not going to even get near them. On the other hand, there's an ongoing problem in Canadian forests of tuberculosis jumping back and forth between wild deer, elk and moose, and domesticated cow populations.

I think that there might be an argument for limited immunities or at least some form of resistance for flu's and crossovers from waterfowl. Overall, the more likely outcome is not particularly greater resistance by Amerinds to disease. Rather, Amerinds may be a bit more sophisticated in their treatment or approach to diseases. Of course, they'll still be a genetically narrower population.

On the other hand, they are likely to have a few new infectious diseases to gift the Europeans with. So there might be some American derived plagues hitting Europe.

Capybara need considerable amounts of water for their large groups to be happy, and like warm climes. They're very hard to domesticate (rather than taking advantage of herds that are nearby) unless you've got considerable material wealth already. Plus the Andean agriculturalists won't like venturing into the jungles to acquire them and won't have the water sources to raise them domestically so they're unlikely to be picked up that way. Finally they like warmer climes and won't be happy above 30N in North America.

What might happen is established agriculturalists on the gulf coast might pick up and raise some Lesser Capybara from Colombia and Panama (and breed them smaller to reduce water management costs) and raise them in Gulf Coast swamps and Florida. Their dietary needs are more similar to the Gulf Coast landscape too, but they are very unlikely to be spread inland (though their pelts will be traded far and wide). Interestingly the Lesser Capybara is believed to carry strains of Brucellosis (a disease the US Army once tried to weaponize)

Domoviye said:

Also with potentially nine domestic animals, widespread agriculture, and larger more connected cities, would this cause the Native Americans to be less susceptible to European diseases. I'm not talking about being totally immune or anything, but not such virgin territory. If they catch a North American flu from their ducks and heath hens, it may help them build up a minor immunity to European flu's. Same thing with dysentery, and a few other illnesses. So instead of death rates between 50% and 90%, depending on the sources, its only 30-60%.

Click to expand...

No, they'd still be utterly boned, though this time they'll have some counter diseases to fire back at the Eurasians. The Americans have the problem of a population bottleneck at the start and (i assume) less time in the disease heavy environment so genetic changes will be small, and its the bunch of diseases hitting together that causes population implosion.

pa_dutch said:

Did you take into account the stingless bee of the Yucatan? I'm not sure that it actually counted as a truly domesticated bee in the way that the Old World honey bee did, but the Mayans were beekeeping for thousands of years.

Click to expand...

Actually I have, along with a few other insects. But I didn't bother listing them, not that important to this part of the discussion. But thanks.

DValdron said:

I wouldn't write them off so easy. The thing with domestication is that the animal population has to survive long enough to be domesticated. A lot of domesticateable animals get hunted out in the areas where domestication might have taken place. Surviving species in the area tend to have traits that allow them to resist hunting, but which also make domestication difficult. To domesticate a species, you need literally a borderline area where the species is able to replenish or maintain its numbers so that it doesn't go locally extinct before it can be domesticated.

I'd say its possible.

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I'll consider this, it makes sense. But I think I'll just write them off. With the ducks and a few other things, thats more than enough for my task.

As for disease pathogens, remember that with the possible exception of the ducks and geese, the North and South American animal populations were isolated even longer than the Indians.
<Snip>

I think that there might be an argument for limited immunities or at least some form of resistance for flu's and crossovers from waterfowl. Overall, the more likely outcome is not particularly greater resistance by Amerinds to disease. Rather, Amerinds may be a bit more sophisticated in their treatment or approach to diseases. Of course, they'll still be a genetically narrower population.

On the other hand, they are likely to have a few new infectious diseases to gift the Europeans with. So there might be some American derived plagues hitting Europe.

Click to expand...

THere will be a few plagues going across the Atlantic. Not as many, but enough to make the Europeans a little cautious.
I agree with pretty much everything you said about the animals and disease. I was going to stick to immunities from mostly birds but avoid the other animals. I'm just glad I'm not totally off base with the better resistance idea.
Thank you very much.

Nugax said:

Capybara need considerable amounts of water for their large groups to be happy, and like warm climes. They're very hard to domesticate (rather than taking advantage of herds that are nearby) unless you've got considerable material wealth already. Plus the Andean agriculturalists won't like venturing into the jungles to acquire them and won't have the water sources to raise them domestically so they're unlikely to be picked up that way. Finally they like warmer climes and won't be happy above 30N in North America.

What might happen is established agriculturalists on the gulf coast might pick up and raise some Lesser Capybara from Colombia and Panama (and breed them smaller to reduce water management costs) and raise them in Gulf Coast swamps and Florida. Their dietary needs are more similar to the Gulf Coast landscape too, but they are very unlikely to be spread inland (though their pelts will be traded far and wide). Interestingly the Lesser Capybara is believed to carry strains of Brucellosis (a disease the US Army once tried to weaponize)

Click to expand...

Don't worry the capybara's would be limited to the Amazon, the wetter areas of Mesoamerica and Caribbeans, and parts of the Gulf Coast. I know they can survive nicely in Northern Florida, but that would be as far north as they go. I just thought it would be an interesting and plausable addition. I also like the idea of the Lesser Capybara, I heard about it but couldn't find much info. It is actually rather nicely placed for one of the big civilizations thats going to be popping up.
That disease is interesting, they're also a natural resevoir for Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever.

No, they'd still be utterly boned, though this time they'll have some counter diseases to fire back at the Eurasians. The Americans have the problem of a population bottleneck at the start and (i assume) less time in the disease heavy environment so genetic changes will be small, and its the bunch of diseases hitting together that causes population implosion.

Click to expand...

I think I'll side with DValdron when it comes to the ducks. But you're right about the rest of the animals.
Thanks it was very helpful.