The History Keeper
Banned
Why don't we see this what if more often? In this book I'm reading called What If?, it lists thirteen ways we could have lost the war. Well, what would happen if we did lose the war? What would America look like today?
What if we lost the Revolutionary War?
- Thread starter The History Keeper
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America remains British for the time being. Eventually it is released like Canada. Either as a country separate from Canada, or together with Canada in one big "British North America."
The History Keeper
Banned
The Thirteen ways are this:
#1 Smauel Adams gets his way after the Boston Massacre.
#2 The British plan works at Bunker Hill.
#3 Wahington attacks the British army in Boston in early 1776.
#4 The British traps Washington's army on Long Island or Manhattan.
#5 Washington decides not to attack Trenton and Princeton or fails in either attempt.
#6 General Benedict Arnold doesn't turn himself into Admiral Arnold on Lake Champlian.
#7 Benedict Arnold obeys orders at Saratoga.
#8 Captain Ferguson pulls the trigger.
#9 Gates replaces Washington as commander in chief.
#10 The British destroys the French expeditionary force within days of its arrival.
#11 Daniel Morgan losses at Cowpens.
#12 Washington refuses to march to Viginia to trap the British at Yorktown or the British escapes after the siege began.
#13 George Washington fails to stop the Newburgh Conspiracy.
There's also another Chapter in the book called "What the Fog Wrought" which talks about a fog that allowed Washington to escape New York when it was undersiege and what would have happened if the fog wasn't there. I haven't gotten there just yet.
Well, supposing we lose the first revolutionary war, rather than the later ones, the invaders would have restored the King on the throne and the reaction will likely see a slaughter of revolutionaries, republicans and even moderates.
As for the effect on America, without the revolutionary and later empire wars to distract it and empty its coffers, it is likely UK would reconquer her rebel colonies at the first opportunity. America would then be split between Uk, Spain, Portugual and Russia.
That's not what you expected? Well, it's an correct answer to your OP as written. And I'm sure people from other countries could make similar answers. Maybe you should remember that not everyone lives in the USA.
I haven't been here a terribly long time but is this really necessary? Is it that offensive?
Necessary? no
Offensive, not to me personally
A helpful corrective? quite possibly
Mind you the "what if we ..." is not totally confined to USians, I don't believe, I think that a couple of other nationalities have done the same. I'm middling sure of at least one Brit who did it, no, don't remember who.
Personally, I think part of the wonder and the glory of this board is the diversity of the members. I'm actually a little surprised (pleasantly, of course) sometimes at how LITTLE parochial americanism is displayed here.
It's mildly offensive, but more importantly it can be confusing. Like, if you want to talk about the Civil War, you say "American Civil War" or "ACW", otherwise some people may not understand which civil war you want to discuss.
Anyway, back on topic, if you want another good book about this topic to read, there's For Want of a Nail by Richard Sobel. It's written in the form of a fictional textbook from a TL in which the British won the Revolutionary War. It starts just before the beginning of the Revolutionary War and ends in the mid-20th century. It's very well done, and while the prose is a little dry (as I said, it's written in the form of a textbook), the overall narrative is quite interesting.
AmIndHistoryAuthor
Banned
I don't think it was intended as offensive, but it is an oversight.
It might also be noted that not every last American thinks "we" losing would have been a bad thing. I'd prefer a US that is more like Canada than like the current US. It'd be better for the world as a whole, esp much of Latin America, Vietnam, Iraq, etc, if the US had never become a world power.
There were also many people at that time in what becomes the US who would've preferred a British colony over a newly independent US, the Loyalists who made up 1/3 of the population, plus freed Black slaves and some Indian tribes who fought alongside the British. If the colonies stay British, slavery ends sooner in the US, and there is far less violence between colonists and Indians.
Incidentally, the What If...? book is a pretty interesting read. I recommend it.
The Whigs take power prior to the Battle of Saratoga, negotiate a settlement which either gives the Americans seats in Parliament or invents the Dominion status @90 years sooner, the Anglo-American Empire rules the world.
Would any distinction have been made between America and Canada? or would it all have become a single Dominion?
I think maybe some of history's troublemakers like Hitler might have behaved more cautiously if America had remained British, because unlike in our timeline, there would never have been any question that a war against the UK would have involved America.
For this reason, and some of the others listed above, one can make a case that the world would have been better off if the American Revolution had failed. But that doesn't mean I believe the Patriot cause was totally wrong, and the Crown side right.
I think maybe some of history's troublemakers like Hitler might have behaved more cautiously if America had remained British, because unlike in our timeline, there would never have been any question that a war against the UK would have involved America.
For this reason, and some of the others listed above, one can make a case that the world would have been better off if the American Revolution had failed. But that doesn't mean I believe the Patriot cause was totally wrong, and the Crown side right.
The ARW started in 1775 when the Regular, Legitimate. Legal Government sent a force to Arrest a small group of Criminals [Terrorists] & Traitors, with weird Political & Religious Ideas, and to confiscate their stash of Illegal Weapons.
[Shades of Waco]
However by defeating Colonel Shockley, the Criminals gained a major pulpit for the legitimization, of their political and Religious agenda.
By the end of the ARW their weird Ideas were wide spread, and by winning the package was accepted as legitimate.
As such a victory in 1775~1777 pre Trenton will see the US return to pre war Colonial Conditions, with minor adjustments to take care of American protests.
But by 1778 even if Britain wins, it will still have to deal with some kind of American Union.
[Shades of Waco]
However by defeating Colonel Shockley, the Criminals gained a major pulpit for the legitimization, of their political and Religious agenda.
By the end of the ARW their weird Ideas were wide spread, and by winning the package was accepted as legitimate.
As such a victory in 1775~1777 pre Trenton will see the US return to pre war Colonial Conditions, with minor adjustments to take care of American protests.
But by 1778 even if Britain wins, it will still have to deal with some kind of American Union.
If the American colonists were defeated by the British in the American Revolutionary War, then America, and the rest of the world would be completely different from our time line. The butterflies are just too significant.
For one thing, the American colonies would have stagnated along the Eastern seaboard. Shortly after the revolution, thousands of American rebels would have left the colonies and resettled in friendlier locales, many probably ending up down in Louisiana and possibly even Spanish Texas.
Without the ability to expand westward, the American colonial families would not have been nearly as large (average 7 children) as OTL and so the population might have stagnated. Slavery almost certainly would have died out quickly without the plantation economy having the essential ability to expand into new lands.
By the 1830s, when OTL America began to experience huge waves of immigration, that immigration would almost certainly not occurred in TTL. As such, economically, it is doubtful the colonies of this time line would be anything more than a British backwater totally dependent upon the mother country.
The French, who may not suffer the devestations of their own revolution, probably reassert more influence and control in all areas around the Mississippi River and may regain lands lost to the British in the 7 years war. They might also gain lands belonging to Spain, as Spain loses power and control over its lands in North and Central America. These events will most certainly be good for the Native Americans, who might over time and without having to contantly fight and lose their lands, be able to prosper.
19th century Europe probably still suffers through wars, revolutions, and famines, but the people who want to emigrate, don't go to North America for the most part, but possibly the Germans, Poles, Irish, Italians, Jews, and Scandanavians go to South America in much larger numbers. While the British Empire probably still becomes large, prosperous, and influential, it will probably be involved in more wars and conflicts with its European adversaries. World War probably occurs sooner in this world, maybe in the 1870s or 1880s.
By the 20th century, North America is probably divided up between the British, the French, and possibly an independent country of Mexico. Some type of inpedendent Native American country might exist if propped up by Britain. If gold was discovered on the West Coast, then Mexico - if it hung onto this land may have become the most prosperous country in North America.
By the 21st century, the world stage in terms of political, economic, and cultural power, will be centered in Europe, while North America will be sort of a backwater. The population will be significantly less. Any military or economic superpowers will be in other parts of the world. No one in the world will play baseball, basketball, or American football. Jazz would never have been invented. Not sure who invents the lightbulb, the phonograph, the telephone, or the moving pictures. Does anyone develop nuclear weapons? Do only the Russians make it into space? Who develops air travel?
Not sure if the world would be a better place or worse place without the rise of the USA, but it sure would be different.
For one thing, the American colonies would have stagnated along the Eastern seaboard. Shortly after the revolution, thousands of American rebels would have left the colonies and resettled in friendlier locales, many probably ending up down in Louisiana and possibly even Spanish Texas.
Without the ability to expand westward, the American colonial families would not have been nearly as large (average 7 children) as OTL and so the population might have stagnated. Slavery almost certainly would have died out quickly without the plantation economy having the essential ability to expand into new lands.
By the 1830s, when OTL America began to experience huge waves of immigration, that immigration would almost certainly not occurred in TTL. As such, economically, it is doubtful the colonies of this time line would be anything more than a British backwater totally dependent upon the mother country.
The French, who may not suffer the devestations of their own revolution, probably reassert more influence and control in all areas around the Mississippi River and may regain lands lost to the British in the 7 years war. They might also gain lands belonging to Spain, as Spain loses power and control over its lands in North and Central America. These events will most certainly be good for the Native Americans, who might over time and without having to contantly fight and lose their lands, be able to prosper.
19th century Europe probably still suffers through wars, revolutions, and famines, but the people who want to emigrate, don't go to North America for the most part, but possibly the Germans, Poles, Irish, Italians, Jews, and Scandanavians go to South America in much larger numbers. While the British Empire probably still becomes large, prosperous, and influential, it will probably be involved in more wars and conflicts with its European adversaries. World War probably occurs sooner in this world, maybe in the 1870s or 1880s.
By the 20th century, North America is probably divided up between the British, the French, and possibly an independent country of Mexico. Some type of inpedendent Native American country might exist if propped up by Britain. If gold was discovered on the West Coast, then Mexico - if it hung onto this land may have become the most prosperous country in North America.
By the 21st century, the world stage in terms of political, economic, and cultural power, will be centered in Europe, while North America will be sort of a backwater. The population will be significantly less. Any military or economic superpowers will be in other parts of the world. No one in the world will play baseball, basketball, or American football. Jazz would never have been invented. Not sure who invents the lightbulb, the phonograph, the telephone, or the moving pictures. Does anyone develop nuclear weapons? Do only the Russians make it into space? Who develops air travel?
Not sure if the world would be a better place or worse place without the rise of the USA, but it sure would be different.