Greco-Albanian War

[Leistungsfähiger Amerikan]

Relations between Greece and Albania have been strained due to tensions over the Northern Epirus area of Albania. Greeks in this area were discriminated against, and since Greece is a very nationalistic country, what would of happened in the event of a war between the two nations? This could happen at many points during the Cold War(due to a royal decree, the two nations were at war, technically, from 1940-1987). Greeks suffered heavily under the Stalinist regime of Tito, but Albania made overtures toward Greece starting in 1978, and by 1985, the border between the nations was opened. The relationship between the nations reached a low point again around 1992-1994, when the Albanian government tried and deported Greek Orthodox Bishops for seditious behavior and tried other Greeks for treason. The Albanian government alleged that the Greek government was interfering in Albanian affairs. In response, Greece stopped EU aid to Albania and evicted illegal Albanian immigrants. While relations have been improved since the two nations signed a treaty in 1996, it occurs to me that tensions could have escalated quickly, with both sides being harsher and harsher to their minority populations in response to the other country, to the point of war. This is such a scenario that could have happened at many points after Albanian-Soviet relations collapsed, since China won't send that much aid to Albania.

What would happen in a scenario of a war between these two nations? While Greece is bigger and has a stronger economy, Albania, at least under communist leadership, was very North Korea like; a very militarized boarder with a disproportionately large army. I assume this would be a Greek invasion of Albania due to the harshness of the treatment of the Greek minority. This could happen under two windows; during the Cold War, with a conservative dictatorship in Greece, from 1967-1974(Greece wouldn't want to start a war during the conflict with Turkey) or even after the restoration of democracy until 1985, when relations tried to improve. Also in the sour period of 1992-1994. So, how would this play out?

[redi.redion]

A mini war between Greece and Albania did happened, I think it was 1948 and the Greeks got a bloody nose.
A war in Europe is out of the question, especially an open war of aggression.
As far as the so called Greek minority in Albania that is mostly a propaganda tool, and the so called abuses are pure propaganda.
For the Greeks to pull this off sometime around 1980 while the dictatorship in Albania was still strong it is very unlikely because as you can well imagine in a dictatorship the state controlled everything so a “incident” between Albanians and the Greek “minority” is unlikely to happened.
It is also true that even with the Greek chauvinism running high there has never been any Albanian countermove to that, Albanians have in fact been very tolerant to the minorities in their country.
What do you think Turkey move would be in Greece declares war to Albania?

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by Leistungsfähiger Amerikan

Stalinist regime of Tito,

Stalin and Tito would probably have some issues with that designation.

[Leistungsfähiger Amerikan]

Originally Posted by redi.redion

A mini war between Greece and Albania did happened, I think it was 1948 and the Greeks got a bloody nose.
A war in Europe is out of the question, especially an open war of aggression.
As far as the so called Greek minority in Albania that is mostly a propaganda tool, and the so called abuses are pure propaganda.
For the Greeks to pull this off sometime around 1980 while the dictatorship in Albania was still strong it is very unlikely because as you can well imagine in a dictatorship the state controlled everything so a “incident” between Albanians and the Greek “minority” is unlikely to happened.
It is also true that even with the Greek chauvinism running high there has never been any Albanian countermove to that, Albanians have in fact been very tolerant to the minorities in their country.
What do you think Turkey move would be in Greece declares war to Albania?

I meant during the 1974(?) Cyprus incident. And the Tito thing was a mistake. Also, I have not found anything on the 1948 war, or that there treatment of the Greek population was only a propaganda tool. Could you site your sources? If true, A) it still leaves a window in 1992-1994 for war and B) I feel that with a conservative dictator ship on one side, and a communist one on the other, war is always a possibility.

[ShadowCommunist2009]

A full on military action between Albania and Greece would definitely draw the eyes of NATO and the Warsaw Pact. Depending on when it happens, Albania would either have the immediate support of the Pact, or, after Albania left the pact, Albania would go running to Moscow begging and pleading. The same with Greece. If NATO didn't immediately intervene, Greece would go running and screaming. In either event, there would have to be some major tension buildup prior that would put East and West on their toes and try and negotiate an end to it before it started.

I don't see a 20th century continental European war a possibility without it ballooning into an East-West WWIII scenario. And even those require some stretches of the imagination to make happen in the first place.

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Originally Posted by I Blame Communism

Stalin and Tito would probably have some issues with that designation.

So would the Albanians, since Tito was the dictator of Yugoslavia.

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by Abdul Hadi Pasha

So would the Albanians, since Tito was the dictator of Yugoslavia.

I thought it was a bit odd to talk about Tito persecuting Greeks...

[Iori]

What would be interesting is if both sides were essentially responsible for the war, leading both NATO and the Warsaw pact to decide that they were essentially not going to interfere, indeed, while this would have been the 'height' of the Cold War, I think that a war between minor states that neither of the two blocs wanted could just maybe lead to some sort of joint intervention, it's a slim, chance but it would be interesting.

What's more, it would be ironic if both Greece and Albania, now hating their respective bloc's went independent and eventually allied with each other further down the road.

[redi.redion]

You are making no sense.
Why would Albania without any support from outside attach Greece and why would Greece would attack Albania and be seen as an aggressor?
And please don’t say for N.Epirus because that is just a propaganda tool for both internal and external purposes.

[Leistungsfähiger Amerikan]

Originally Posted by redi.redion

You are making no sense.
Why would Albania without any support from outside attach Greece and why would Greece would attack Albania and be seen as an aggressor?
And please don’t say for N.Epirus because that is just a propaganda tool for both internal and external purposes.

I specifically said a Greek attack on Albania, not the other way around. And as I said before, even if what you say is true, it could still start a war if the Greek junta decides they need to rally support. But I am still waiting to see your sources.

In regard to the other posts, I am surprised that people think the USSR would come to the support of Albania after the split between the two nations. I suppose it all ahs to do with the casus belli of the war, however; if Greece launches an unprovoked attack on Albania, then I suppose it would be possible for the USSR to intervene during the 1970's, but into the Gorbachev era, I am not so sure. Also, I heard that the Albanian-Greece boarder was very well defended. Does anybody know about this?

[redi.redion]

If the war happens in 1992-1994 they Greece with basically win big time in a mater of 1 week.
The Albanian army at this point is a joke. No real navy or air forces just some leftover equipment.
As far as sources read history of Albania after ww2.
The problem is that a war between countries in Europe at this time is unthinkable.

[yourworstnightmare]

Originally Posted by redi.redion

If the war happens in 1992-1994 they Greece with basically win big time in a mater of 1 week.
The Albanian army at this point is a joke. No real navy or air forces just some leftover equipment.
As far as sources read history of Albania after ww2.
The problem is that a war between countries in Europe at this time is unthinkable.

cough... Yugoslavia...cough.

[Farfromhome]

Greece it has such a proud heritage, such great ambition, such historic land claims, and yet such a shitty military. Even when they were handed land on a silver platter they couldn't hold on too it. No matter how cool it might be to have an expanded modern Greece. There is no way that they could actually make that happen. Was it there equipment, their population base, their leadership. Why have the greeks been so piss poor in the modern military sense.

[redi.redion]

Jugoslavia was a ethnic conflict not an oppen war between sovreig countries. However bad the Greek military is, the Albanian is far, far worse.

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by Farfromhome

Greece it has such a proud heritage, such great ambition, such historic land claims, and yet such a shitty military. Even when they were handed land on a silver platter they couldn't hold on too it. No matter how cool it might be to have an expanded modern Greece. There is no way that they could actually make that happen. Was it there equipment, their population base, their leadership. Why have the greeks been so piss poor in the modern military sense.

My opinion is pretty much the opposite. The world and the Greek nation would be better off if there wasn't any Greek state, but that state did very well during WW2. Men shall say that heroes fight like Greeks and all that.

[redi.redion]

Spare us the propaganda about the Greek bravery during ww2.

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by redi.redion

Spare us the propaganda about the Greek bravery during ww2.

Propaganda schmopaganda. Do you think a bona-fide Ottomanist witha dash of Slavophilia such as myself cares for Greek nationalist propaganda? No, I'm stating facts. The Greeks did a splendid job. The Italians underestimated them tremendously and they were able to not only defend Greece but go on the offensive until the Germans rolled in. Do you have any basis for your accusation whatever?

[redi.redion]

When it comes to wars people tend to came up with terms like bravery, stoic resistance and all that kind or crap.
I don’t buy any of it.
Systematical training, a good strategy and leader and some serious logistic/staff work, that makes the difference.
The Italians in world war 2 had none of those.
So that has nothing to do with “Greek bravery”.

[DusanUros]

Originally Posted by redi.redion

When it comes to wars people tend to came up with terms like bravery, stoic resistance and all that kind or crap.
I don’t buy any of it.
Systematical training, a good strategy and leader and some serious logistic/staff work, that makes the difference.
The Italians in world war 2 had none of those.
So that has nothing to do with “Greek bravery”.

And the Greeks did?

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by redi.redion

When it comes to wars people tend to came up with terms like bravery, stoic resistance and all that kind or crap.
I don’t buy any of it.
Systematical training, a good strategy and leader and some serious logistic/staff work, that makes the difference.
The Italians in world war 2 had none of those.
So that has nothing to do with “Greek bravery”.

It's just as well I never used that phrase at any point, then, isn't it?

What I said was that they "did a very good/splendid job", and I also quoted Churchill (somewhat tongue-in-cheek: "all that" is not a phrase associated with nationalist eulolagisation), who, as it turns our, also didn't use that phrase. Calm down, don't make false accusations.

Anyway, from the military side, while imagined national characteristics certainly don't decide wars, there is such a thing as stoic resistance. There is also such a thing as bravery. Having bravery without strategy, logistics, logistics, and logistics is a sure way to get slaughtered, but having all those things and no courage isn't going to get you anywhere either.