AH challenge: Franco-German Alliance

[Onkel Willie]

Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to create a TL with a non-ASB PoD after the end of the Franco-Prussian War in 1871 in which the German Empire and the Third Republic become allies (even if it's unwillingly) in a war against a third power (and any allies of said third power).

[Onkel Willie]

*bumpity bump*

[Grey Wolf]

There was a period of rapprochement

There was also a period in the later 1890s when both countries were involved in serious arguments with Britain, so could conceivably have ended up as allies of convenience

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[Ahura Mazda]

Britain conquers Morocco in 1911?

Especially if also Russia could somehow join on Britains side, dunno how to do that though...

[sedsa]

The problem as i see it German unity was build upon a defeated France.
e.g. the coronation of Wilhelm I in Versailles and not in Francfort;
the unity financed by the 5 billion franc of reparation;
the annexation of A.-L.; the try to build a national feeling of unity by glorifying the victory over France (e.g. Day of Sedan).

After 1871 Germany needed such national symbols to cement its unity.
If you want to have a Franco-German Alliance you would have to change this point.

Further more i think there is no other reason for Germany and France to be enemies. If they can find an accord in regards of Africa they would be the perfect allies. Neither would have anything the other would want. On the other side both hated Britain.

[RGB]

British Nightmare situation:

France+Germany+Russia, over some African/colonial shenanigans.

[Boto von Ageduch]

PoD after the end of the Franco-German War -

does that allow for finding a different facility for the German coronation event?

[Xenos]

What about Germany supporting France during the Fashoda incident? Although it would end up playing out as another Whale vs. Wolf campaign since the British would only be able to engage the Franco-German forces overseas. The British, though outnumbered, would be victorious in Africa because they can keep their armies supplied by sea. The French navy at this stage (1898) was poorly built and poorly led, so they would be cut off from their empire very quickly by the Royal Navy. The situation would inevitably develop into a continental blockade by the British, and the implementation of a 'continental system' by the French and Germans.
The Americans would probably be outraged that Britain would punish neutrals (including the US) by blockading Europe and might form a new 'league of armed neutrality', maybe involving Russia. Eventually the British, who had become so desperate to end this war, agree to US arbitration. The US rule in favour of Britain over the original dispute as it was the French who were violating the Treaty of Berlin. However, Britain has found itself isolated from the Continent and her actions have brought about the creation of a 'common market' led by France and Germany. Europe shows its contempt for British and American gunboat diplomacy by creating a protectionist system with high tariffs to exclude British and American competition. The French and Germans discover 'soft power' and use it to maximum effect.
The British reciprocate European and American protectionism by exluding outsiders from their Empire and Commonwealth except a select few 'most favoured nations'. They find a soulmate in Japan, whom they allow to pray on French and Dutch territories in Asia in order to establish a dual hegemony which will guarantee the security of Asia's raw materials and trade routes. The Franco-German partnership has, in effect, commited the two nations into being continental powers rather than maritime-imperial powers (they cannot be both effectively). This alliance ensures that, if war ever breaks out, it will be on an unimaginable scale.

[T3h_shammy]

Originally Posted by RGB

British Nightmare situation:

France+Germany+Russia, over some African/colonial shenanigans.

Is it really? Britain laughing situation more like it. You can't get us, You can't get us nahnahnahnah

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by T3h_shammy

Is it really? Britain laughing situation more like it. You can't get us, You can't get us nahnahnahnah

No, nightmare. For one thing, there was a period when we could concievably have been defeated on the seas by a skillful and lucky Franco-German fleet. This was shown up around about the Bulgarian crisis, IIRC, and it was why the Two Power Standard came to exist. So at times in the late 19th century, the "continental league" (which Bismarck aired to unnerve Britain a couple of times: we were in a high kerfuffle over the Triple Intervention at Shimoseki), even if it wasn't going to implement Unternehmn Otarie, could have massively stretched Britain resources all over the globe.

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by sedsa

The problem as i see it German unity was build upon a defeated France.
e.g. the coronation of Wilhelm I in Versailles and not in Francfort;
the unity financed by the 5 billion franc of reparation;
the annexation of A.-L.; the try to build a national feeling of unity by glorifying the victory over France (e.g. Day of Sedan).

After 1871 Germany needed such national symbols to cement its unity.
If you want to have a Franco-German Alliance you would have to change this point.

This simply isn't the case. It was popular German sentiment that played a big role in getting the south German states in the war, so clearly German unity was already a popular cause. Germany hasn't collapsed now, and its in the EU. The actual conditions of German unity (the south ascends to the NGF, the NGF is proclaimed to be the German Empire! (Three Hurrays!), nationalist nobs are affixed) were built on a defeat France, but German unity in general survived Germany being defeated by France.

Originally Posted by sedsa

Further more i think there is no other reason for Germany and France to be enemies. If they can find an accord in regards of Africa they would be the perfect allies. Neither would have anything the other would want.

Alsace-Lorraine was the big sticking point, and they did co-operate in other parts of the world when it was sensible. In fact, Napoleon III has something like this in mind in 1866-7. But I wouldn't call them "perfect allies".

Originally Posted by sedsa

On the other side both hated Britain.

They did? News to me.

[sedsa]

Originally Posted by I Blame Communism

This simply isn't the case. It was popular German sentiment that played a big role in getting the south German states in the war, so clearly German unity was already a popular cause. Germany hasn't collapsed now, and its in the EU. The actual conditions of German unity (the south ascends to the NGF, the NGF is proclaimed to be the German Empire! (Three Hurrays!), nationalist nobs are affixed) were built on a defeat France, but German unity in general survived Germany being defeated by France.

National unity was of course popular by many but not the ruling elite. Wilhelm I did not want to be the german Emperor. The south did not want to join the Prussians. The Wittelsbacher for example had to be bought and were granted a lot of seperate rights. You can not underestimate the what a common foe can accomplish for inner unity. The EC was not at least founded because of the common enemy soviet union. The EU would be even less united if not for the common economic and political "enemy" America and perhaps China.
After the end of WW I German unity was a fact for nearly 50 years. This was something even France could not have changed although it did want to.
What I´m trying to say is that for Germany after 1871 the victory over France was the first common achievment. In every city there are still streets named after the battles of Sedan and Wissembourg. As a new nation it needed like the US national symbols to create a feeling of unity.

[yourworstnightmare]

Only way it has a chance is if Germany not annex Alsace- Lorraine. Otherwise it's just plain impossible.

[sedsa]

Originally Posted by yourworstnightmare

Only way it has a chance is if Germany not annex Alsace- Lorraine. Otherwise it's just plain impossible.

I think there was a french ouverture to give indo-chine to the Germans if they could keep Alsace- Lorraine.

Of course the southern states wanted a cordon sanitaire against the neighbour outre rhin.

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by sedsa

National unity was of course popular by many but not the ruling elite. Wilhelm I did not want to be the german Emperor. The south did not want to join the Prussians. The Wittelsbacher for example had to be bought and were granted a lot of seperate rights. You can not underestimate the what a common foe can accomplish for inner unity. The EC was not at least founded because of the common enemy soviet union. The EU would be even less united if not for the common economic and political "enemy" America and perhaps China.

The Wittelsbachs weren't enthusiastic, but the Bavarians were. That's an important part of my point: the Bavarians were pro-Prussia in the dispute when it started, and that was a big part of the reason they were involved in the war. It wasn't that they joined the war and picked up German sentiment as they marched.

Originally Posted by sedsa

After the end of WW I German unity was a fact for nearly 50 years. This was something even France could not have changed although it did want to.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by sedsa

What I´m trying to say is that for Germany after 1871 the victory over France was the first common achievment. In every city there are still streets named after the battles of Sedan and Wissembourg. As a new nation it needed like the US national symbols to create a feeling of unity.

I agree that without the war there would be a very differant Germany, but its not like there wouldn't be German sentiment in the various countries, and it would probably have suceeded. Certainly pursuing a reasonable policy towards France in the 1880s wasn't going to wobble the German body politic, which is the relevant question.

And this is a bit incidental, but people often get caught up in the moment when they're naming streets after things. I've never met another citizen of Edinburgh who knew why Portobello is called that!

Originally Posted by sedsa

I think there was a french ouverture to give indo-chine to the Germans if they could keep Alsace- Lorraine.

Of course the southern states wanted a cordon sanitaire against the neighbour outre rhin.

Indeed, the French were willing to make some pretty plump colonial concessions to Germany if they could stay intact in Europe. And IIRC, Baden actually had the cession of Alsace as a condition for joining the war.

[Susano]

Ill generally just "+1" everything IBC says, as usual , but one small nitpick at sedsa: Germany was no new nation. The German Empire was at that time a new state or country, but the German nation went back cerca a millenium at that time.

[Hörnla]

#1 Simple as that: the Boxer rebellion, 1901.

#2 Thesis on Alsace-Lorraine: IMHO, the main point would have been to treat the Alsatians better. For far too long, Alsace-Lorraine had been administered by Berlin and the military. Incidents like the Saverne-affair showed that many Germans didn't accept the Alsatians as equally German.

The French nation would have gotten over it- somewhen. Although later than over the incident of the coronation in Versailles. Yes, it was a humiliation, but so was the burning of the White House in 1812.

#3 Nevertheless, in retrospective, it probably needs a devastating major war between France and Germany after 1871 to shake them enough to find to each other. How about a WW1 with monarchy in Germany surviving despite the defeat and signing Locarno? Not turning into the 3rd Reich, Germany and France might find more common ground which could gradually turn into an alliance. I just cannot see anyone insane enough to attack France AND Germany.

#4 Less probable - France being forced into a German-dominated "Mitteleuropa" after its defeat in 1916. Still angry about the treacherous Brits, who left them alone in 1914 and chose to profiteer from the continental war to an obscene degree, French collaborateurs stand staunchly on Germany's side when it comes to the fight for Global Domination agains the Anglo-Americans in the 1920s.

Originally Posted by sedsa

In every city there are still streets named after the battles of Sedan and Wissembourg. As a new nation it needed like the US national symbols to create a feeling of unity.

Tomorrow I will go and look for a Sedanstrasse in Dorsten, where I live (80,000 inhabitants) and in Münster where I work (260,000 inhabitants).

[MRig]

Originally Posted by RGB

British Nightmare situation:

France+Germany+Russia, over some African/colonial shenanigans.

Any two of these can end up allied for various reasons. But all three? Realism describes pre-WWI alliance politics too well for that one to be plausible, IMO. It's definitely a British nightmare scenario, in any case.

I agree with IBC and Susano on their points re: German nationalism and the F-P war. Giving what's-for to the ancient enemy France spurred German unity, but it didn't create it.

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by Hörnla

#2 Thesis on Alsace-Lorraine: IMHO, the main point would have been to treat the Alsatians better. For far too long, Alsace-Lorraine had been administered by Berlin and the military. Incidents like the Saverne-affair showed that many Germans didn't accept the Alsatians as equally German.

At one point (I forget one) the Austrians got over-alarmed about some Russian manouvre and started urging Germany to grant "autonomy" to A-L, apparently believing that this would make possible a French alliance or at least benevolent neutrality there and then. Wishful thinking, of course, but an interesting story.

[Alayta]

Have the germans get rid of their Emperoer by having strong socialist and catholic movents unite. Probably such a movement will trigger a similar movement in france. A minor civil war in germany is going on.
After the victory of the progressive forces, a voting takes place, weather Alsace-Lorraine want to be german or france - So no reasons for hard feelings nationalist-wise.
But big reasons for standing to each other for beeing the progrssive force in europe again (in the case of france at least...)