Would Oswald be a suck up?

After having read 'The Leader' a couple of years ago, and also after having read some TL's in which Sir Oswald Mosley leads the BUF to victory one way or another, it seems most people believe that he would've been a suck-up to Hitler, and that he would be discussing a removal of British jews with Hitler.

Now Oswald himself was not extremely anti-semitic, he only used anti-semitism for political gain (it was William Joyce who was the real anti-semitic of the party.) So I think this rules out any 'Final Solution' discussion between Hitler and Mosley. It also seems that the British Union of Fascists didn't have Nazi ideologies, but instead modeled itself on Italian Fascism, and although it was anti-communist, let's all be quite honest, who at the time (other than the communists,) did like the communists? It's just some parties showed this more than others (while the Nazi's believe in the absolute destruction of Bolshevism.)

Also, I can't imagine Mosley to be some whimpering, pathetic man under Hitler, he could be allies with him, but I don't think that if Hitler told Mosley to do anything, he'd just bow down and do it. I can imagine him standing up to Hitler, and possibly becoming enemies with him (Mosley was very much a British Nationalist.) Or maybe if not enemies, possibly Sir Oswald would simply keep Britain isolationist during the War, I don't think he should get any stick for this, seeing as if the events in 'The Leader' occurred in which Sir Oswald took power through a kind of Putsch during the crisis in which King Edward VIII didn't abdicate, I could imagine him being slightly like America was, possibly helping France or some other nation through lend-leases.

Also I can imagine a slight rise of fascism in Europe after another one of the 'Western European Nations' 'falls' to Fascism. This would mean that the fascist nations of Europe would be - Germany, Italy, Britain, Spain (technically an 'Authoritarian State',) and Portugal (again technically a authoritarian dictatorship.) But could other parties in some nations, such as Action Française or some other political party coming to prominence in a country such as France, or maybe the General Dutch Fascist League in the Netherlands.

Sorry for blabbering but I wanted people to realize that Mosley wasn't a 'omg teh nazi evulness.'

So after all I've written what are your thoughts? Let's say he becomes Prime Minister with a POD like 'The Leader'. What do you think would really happen afterwards? You've read my views, so I'd be interested in reading yours.

I vaguely recall reading an article in The Torygraph in which it was recounted that one of the Mitfords had revealed in a letter that Mosely thought Hitler was a dreadful little oik - or similar.

MrP said:

I vaguely recall reading an article in The Torygraph in which it was recounted that one of the Mitfords had revealed in a letter that Mosely thought Hitler was a dreadful little oik - or similar.

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I know Mosley didn't really like Hitler (much like William Joyce.) So when I read that he'd work with him and all that I get a tad annoyed as I don't think he would've. Now he may've worked with Italy, but I don't think he would've worked with Germany.

I remember reading somewhere that a fascist Britain would still have gone to war with Nazi Germany--Britain's interests are still Britain's interests, regardless of who is in charge.

For example, the Czars kept trying to get warm-water ports, and the Soviets tried to do the same as late as the late 1940s (witness their bullying of Turkey, which provked the US containment policy).

MerryPrankster said:

I remember reading somewhere that a fascist Britain would still have gone to war with Nazi Germany--Britain's interests are still Britain's interests, regardless of who is in charge.

For example, the Czars kept trying to get warm-water ports, and the Soviets tried to do the same as late as the late 1940s (witness their bullying of Turkey, which provked the US containment policy).

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Exactly, the only problem I foresee is William Joyce (Lord Haw-Haw.) As he was only dropped from the party due to the loss of the election and so staff cuts were needed, and although he was the second-in-command to Sir Oswald, Mosley actually disliked him.

In what timeframe?

After war is declared?

I'm not an Oswald-ologist, but I remember some discussions at SHWI that regardless of how vile he was, he was a loyalist who would never betray his country in time of war.

Anyway, there was never any chance of him becoming the UK Petain or Quisling--if that's what you're looking for there are a bunch of much likelier suspects in the HofC, the Lords, and in clubland during the early years of the war, when Mosley was cooling his heels in gaol.

Magniac said:

In what timeframe?

After war is declared?

I'm not an Oswald-ologist, but I remember some discussions at SHWI that regardless of how vile he was, he was a loyalist who would never betray his country in time of war.

Anyway, there was never any chance of him becoming the UK Petain or Quisling--if that's what you're looking for there are a bunch of much likelier suspects in the HofC, the Lords, and in clubland during the early years of the war, when Mosley was cooling his heels in gaol.

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I'm using the idea from 'The Leader' that during the Abdication crisis Edward VIII refuses to abdicate, causing many politicians to leave Parliament, and then Churchill creates a 'Kings Party' which is put down by Mosley who uses a Putsch to gain power and become PM.

So Mosley would become PM in about 1937. As I said in all that, he was essentially a British Nationalist and so I can't imagine him simply bowing to Hitler, also I believe he was a much stronger figure than Chamberlain, so I reckon the Munich Agreement would've gone worse for Hitler in the sense that I don't think Mosley would want Hitler to become to powerful.

This is also of course 2 years before WW2, so I believe Mosley would've either stayed isolationist, or would've gone t war with Hitler over a 'Munich Crisis' in which Hitler constantly demanded to much.

gamb1993 said:

I'm using the idea from 'The Leader' that during the Abdication crisis Edward VIII refuses to abdicate, causing many politicians to leave Parliament, and then Churchill creates a 'Kings Party' which is put down by Mosley who uses a Putsch to gain power and become PM.

So Mosley would become PM in about 1937.

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A book with a PoD in 1936 making Mosley PM?

That doesn't sound promising. Off the top of my head I think Mosley's best chance is if Lloyd George introduces proportional representation in the early nineteen twenties, leading to a different multi-party system arising.

Magniac said:

A book with a PoD in 1936 making Mosley PM?

That doesn't sound promising. Off the top of my head I think Mosley's best chance is if Lloyd George introduces proportional representation in the early nineteen twenties, leading to a different multi-party system arising.

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But the thought behind it is, after Edward VIII refuses to abdicate a lot of the major politicians leave parliament as they promised, and so the state pretty much only has two parties, the 'Kings Party' and the BUF. And after a successful Putsch Mosley takes power from Churchill.

Though i know what you mean.

The scenario in the Leader is unlikely. There is something un English about the blackshirts which were regarded as absurd. There is a dislike of regimentation in the English character. Mosley's best option would have been to have remained within the Labour Party but patience wasn't his scene. The New Party was never given the test of time but lacking a powerbase would probably have never taken off. The whole point about Mosley is that he wasn't prepared to wait and blew it

Mosley as a puppet figure? He claimed he would have resisted any invasion. However short of an invasion, the odds are a Conservative admininstration possibly leade by Halifax would have ensued. In the event of an invasion, the Germans would have been better off trying to use a traditional conservative rather than a fascist upstart. The made that mistake in Norway with Quisling.

Has anyone mentioned EdT's "A Greater Britain" timeline yet?