KNIL better equipped, trained, led by 1941/42

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knil

OK, WI the Dutch East Indies Army was better equipped, trained & led when the Japs invaded the NEI in 1942 ? How much more of a difference could a better KNIL have made to holding Java ?

How much better? IIRC, like most forces in the region at the time they didn't lack men.

The thing about the Japanese campaign is that it was conducted with 11 divisions. If they were opponents were half decent they would stop this pitiful force in it's tracks.

Delay the war for a month or two and IIRC a large quantity or weapons will arrive from the US among which tanks. That could have gone a long way. Thing is that with the loss of the homeland it get's hard to get the KNIL to be better led. The only thing I can think of is a POD that get's Spoor in a higher position so that he can lead the defense of Java. Getting the brothers Van Voorst tot Voorst out might have helped but I don't think they ever would.

Have this guy not die in an air crash two months before the war.

HJ Tulp said:

Delay the war for a month or two and IIRC a large quantity or weapons will arrive from the US among which tanks. That could have gone a long way. Thing is that with the loss of the homeland it get's hard to get the KNIL to be better led. The only thing I can think of is a POD that get's Spoor in a higher position so that he can lead the defense of Java. Getting the brothers Van Voorst tot Voorst out might have helped but I don't think they ever would.

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A Spoor/Westerling-like combo with afaik their perference for irregular/unconventional/modern warfare (see Djokja) could have worked better then OTL.

Generally replacing the 'old guard' with younger officers prior too '42 would have been a good idea, not waiting with that untill it was too late as OTL. Shouldn't the Dutch government have seen the writing on the wall after the fall of continental Europe?

Then again, wasn't Spoor an intelligence puke in '40ish with a recent history of teaching law etc at the Militaire Academie?

FlyingDutchman said:

A Spoor/Westerling-like combo with afaik their perference for irregular/unconventional/modern warfare (see Djokja) could have worked better then OTL.

Generally replacing the 'old guard' with younger officers prior too '42 would have been a good idea, not waiting with that untill it was too late as OTL. Shouldn't the Dutch government have seen the writing on the wall after the fall of continental Europe?

Then again, wasn't Spoor an intelligence puke in '40ish with a recent history of teaching law etc at the Militaire Academie?

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Given the fact that Westerling was living in Istanbul and could better speak Turkish then Dutch at this time I'm afraid that isn't possible.

Thing is that after the fall of the European part of the Netherlands Dutch officers were of limited supply. You can sack the top of the KNIL and replace them with younger officers but who is going to replace those?

Spoor was teaching tactics and strategy at the KMA from '34 till '38 when he became head of Political affairs with the General staff in Bandoeng as well as teacher of Military and Indian Emergency Law at Bandoeng. He only became head of the Netherlands Forces Intelligence Service after the fall of the DEI.

HJ Tulp said:

Given the fact that Westerling was living in Istanbul and could better speak Turkish then Dutch at this time I'm afraid that isn't possible.

Thing is that after the fall of the European part of the Netherlands Dutch officers were of limited supply. You can sack the top of the KNIL and replace them with younger officers but who is going to replace those?

Spoor was teaching tactics and strategy at the KMA from '34 till '38 when he became head of Political affairs with the General staff in Bandoeng as well as teacher of Military and Indian Emergency Law at Bandoeng. He only became head of the Netherlands Forces Intelligence Service after the fall of the DEI.

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I already realised after posting Westerling was way too young to have any effect on WWII, or at the very least early WWII.
I mistakenly only remembered Spoor's teachings of Law, so thanks for correcting that.

I Agree there's only a very limited group of officers to chose from after May '40, although iirc a relatively large part of the navy and it's officers continued to serve after May '40.

It pains me a bit to see how mismanaged the DEI militarily were. Could it actually be a draw in military mismanagement between the Philippines and the DEI?

It could be a tie indeed...

As far as the KNIL was concerned, I think the real difference would have had to start with the Contenental Dutch government of the early 1930s committing to a real, well planned, and lavishly funded military buildup.

In this, we see a buildup of the Dutch defense industry, especially in aero and armor,artillerie production. In saying a strengthening of the aero industry, I mean aircraft engines as well.

If the Dutch govt would have shown this military buildup as the new national policy, then firms such as Koolhaven and Fokker would have attained the subcontract relations with suppliers in order to drastically increase the numbers of aircraft that could be produced. And so we must understand that the term "full production capability" is dependant upon what the Dutch govt was trying to do here with regards to Dutch military aviation in the 1930s.

The FK-58s, G-1s, and the DXX1s never really reahced thier potential as the money for R&D, and purchase orders were so stingily disbursed by the Dutch government. So we cannot judge thier real history performance with the possibilities of what might have been achieved in a different scenario.

Same goes with the Dutch ground units. Heavy metals shops could have been set up to produce AT and AA artillery and the armor could have been purchased from firms such as Vickers. The 6-ton tank (in larger numbers) would have helped in Java quite a lot, if sufficient air cover were available.


This brings up the idea of bases. Aerodromes, training and maintenence facilities, base defenses, infantry battalions and garrisons to defend these rear area bases become important. Large, numerous, and well defended aerodromes in Java (built in the 1930s) could have given the ground defenders the flexibility and capability to resist any landing on the island of Java.

And what does that do to the IJN's efforts to ship oil from the other places of the NEI that they might have captured?

Lets see sub-pens built on Java, with a couple of dozen subs stationed there when the war breaks out. Japanese shipping would have taken a heavy beating.

And so, if the Dutch govt had taken some pretty drastic steps in the 1930s to rearm, then we might see a much different strategic map in 1942 than we did historically.

And...the Dutch could have abandoned the old Steyer straight pull rifles in thier oddball cal and adopted home built versions of the SMLE, or maybe even the pattern 14 in cal .303. Converting to Brens, or original Lewis guns, everything to .303 to ensure ammo compatibility with the UK would be nice too. Setting up of a small arsenal in the early 1930s to build these weapons (and some jungle carbines, maybe .38 special) would also do a lot to help things along.


For that matter, the Dutch navy would have enjoyed from this buildup as well. If home shipyards couldnt keep up with demand for the navy, contracts could have been let out to the US, France, Uk, etc. Heck, Dutch officials could probably even purchased the old battleships "Minas Gerais" and "Sao Paulo", towed them to Newport News to be rebuilt, and had them in service as cruiser killers by 1940. They would be slow, but suitable for hunting German raiders, escorting convoys, shore bombardment. Thier 12 in guns would be enough for that.
A naval buildup means a re-arming of many of the Dutch units from 5.9 to another common caliber. The Dutch had a bad habbit of buying thier guns where they could be got on the cheap. This was bad. Also, some of thier cruisers were simply too large to still be using what was a destroyer caliber gun (5.9). So, these things would need to be fixed, read $$$. But, hey, the 5.9 being removed and swapped for other calibers on the cruisers means more coastal batteries have guns.

And scrapping the ancient warships would be a must too!

We must also look to the Dutch Antillies and Suriname. Here, naval air patrols and ASW units would be needed, as well as more colonial troops. Building an arsenal on Curacao, or Suriname helps the colonial employment issue (Suriname more needful than Curacao..Aruba busy growing Aloe) and helps to equip the colonial troops with reasonably priced weapons which will be suppliable with ammo from the UK or USA.

And the douse of it is that I think the Dutch govt could have funded it all, with a big marketing and sell off of the many colonial resources on hand. Indonesia has a wealth of gemstones available, as well as tropical woods, etc. Now if a really clever marketting scheme to sell these goods around the world in a store chain ( revamped and resurrected West India Company) with special emphasis on the Germany market...


Giving that as a prerequisite, then I think the KNIL can hold Java in 1942, and thus make it a shorter war.
Heck, it might even deter Kido Butai altogether.

And with Java holding strong, there might be a chance to evacuate more Americans from the Phillipeans, or re-supply them. Convoys from Java to the Phillipeans might enjoy meaningful air cover for at least part of the journey. The IJN would probably want to meet the allied convoys closer to the Phillipeans. Now what could the allies do with that scenario (read Cactus Air Force).

So, if the Dutch would have done these things in the 1930s (and made it legal to send Contenental troops abroad) then we see the possibility for a real disaster for Japan. In short, I dont think the Japanese would have done Kido as we know it.

So we can suppose that if Java is to hold in '42, then the seeds of victory must be sewn in the 1930s. There must be a unified and well planned Dutch rearming in order to ensure that the Java garrison has what it needs. And that very much included naval power, and air forces that could at least dispute the air superiority issue so that niether side really controlls the air in/over Java and the sea out to the range of Dutch aviation. Here, the new cruisers and destroyers of the Dutch navy can at least have a chance. This keeps the Kawanishi flying boats at bay, and thus an advantage to the Dutch in the counter recon department. But it all depends on Holland starting early with rearming.

How much would it have cost? Well, what ever it would have costed for the Dutch to swing such a re-armament program, it would have been cheaper than what they did suffer by not doing it! They paid for it in the long run.

All the Dutch needed was
A...some leadership with vision, and
B...leadership with some guts.

Just some thoughts??? Just for fun.

If you look at the size of the Dutch economy, we Dutch could have achieved much, much more militarily both in WWI and WWII.

The economy of the Netherlands was of the same size as the Czechoslovakian one and they had a very respectable military.

Much of it is to blame on the general penny-wise pound-foolish attitude.
For example the economical recovery in the '30s took relatively long in the Netherlands amongst others because the Dutch government refused to invest in the economy, something which it could easily have done.
When the Dutch government decided (finally) to invest in it's military (might that be a good idea, since a quarter of the GDP was earned halfway across the globe) it was too little too late.
Example of that is how both WWI and WWII interrupted a naval build-up with capital ships.

Concerning the military there are examples galore of penny-wise pound-foolishness. Two of the most idiotic, almost funny ones are:
- demanding of Fokker that the D-XXI wouldn't have a retractable landinggear, as that would drive the price up slightly;
- putting one less double turret on the light cruiser 'De Ruyter' and replacing that with a single gun. Officially IIRC to set an example against the nations building up for war, but probably to save a few $.

I went over this a little in my An Alternate History of the Netherlands. Japanese conquest was not total, and continuing fighting in the East Indies drew away forces that could have been fighting the Americans.

KNIL holding out in 1942...

I wonder how the situation might have been different if Java is holding out strongly in 1942? Does this mean that the Phillipeans can be either evacuated, or even resupplied? Does this open the door for "the aid" to reach the Phillipeans in time?

Richard Stanbery said:

As far as the KNIL was concerned, I think the real difference would have had to start with the Contenental Dutch government of the early 1930s committing to a real, well planned, and lavishly funded military buildup.

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That would be almost impossible to do. In the early 30´s the Great Depression was at its worst and any threat at its lowest. Japan had not even begun to attack China for example.


a) Airpower:

I absolutely concur! A network of well build bases and sufficient, modern planes is key to holding the DEI. And given the capabilities of the Dutch aviation industry it would have been fairly easy to get the necessary planes. The Fokker DXXI is a good basis for a modern fighter and the TVIII and TIX would have given them the badly needed torpedo bombers.


b) Armour, artillery, small arms:

Here I disagree. The Japanese were second rate in this regard in quality and quantity. WW1 vintage guns like the 75mm M1897 would have sufficed if available in sufficient numbers. Dutch small arms are ok, too. The problem was neither the rifle, nor the calibre but the wrong shape of the bullets. So they just need more of the same. And I especially warn about converting to cal.303 because it was technically obsolete and only retained by the UK because of the large numbers of ammo and weapons left over from WW1.


c) Navy:

Please don´t waste money on "Minas Gerais" and "Sao Paulo". Both were obsolete at the end of WW1 and the “cruiser killer”-idea was utterly flawed –Japan had many BB she could have send and cruisers can be killed in many ways. 4.7 and 5.9inch shells are powerful enough to destroy any cruiser´s superstructure allowing torpedo armed DD to close in for the kill or force the cruiser to head for the next shipyard. 250kilo/500lb bombs were also known to be effective against cruisers. Last but not least 5.9inch/15cm is not a destroyer but a cruiser calibre and the only shortcoming of the Dutch guns was the lack of time fuse shells to engage low flying airplanes like torpedo bombers.


d) Manpower:

They had a mere 35,000 regulars to defend the entire DEI. That is the equivalent of two divisions. They either need to increase the number or concentrate the troops on Java and Sumatra, effectively abandoning Borneo and the other islands.

KNIL holding out in 1942...

As to manpower, it could ahve been raised to any level desired if the will to train and eqipt them had existed. I cant remember which one, but certain sections of the Indonesian populace was noted for loyal service to the Dutch going back many many years. Also, we could have seen open recruitment from other parts of the empire to fill Java.

I understand that it was illegal to post continental Dutch troops to Indonesia. I find that silly.

But yes, I think that pulling the troops abck to Java and leaving the other islands thinly manned would be the best scenario here.

As to naval power, I just threw that one in to show that there were possibilities not usually thought of.

I believe a healthy force of cruisers is essential to keeping Java in allied hands.

I didnt mention the so-called Dutch battlecruiser plans, just because they were thought of too late to have been built, even if funded. But now that I think of it, I wonder if an additional 6 or eight cruisers of modern construction ( and twice the number of DDs) with two of the Dutch battle cruisers (based on the German designs) would have made a real difference.

To answer that, we must ask what would be the likely strategy for the Dutch to pursue if they had more ships, planes, etc.

Do the Dutch sit around and wait to be invaded? Or do they become proactive? How to play this out?

I love naval AH. But it is pretty ASB for the dutch battlecruisers to be built, which too bad for them facing off with the Kongo's would be fun. Now of course they most likely would have been lost to Japanese air power, but still makes a fun scenario. Even better would be a Dutch carrier somehow...

How about an earlier POD? The Dutch did have plans to order BCs from Germany around 1914, but of course the war got in the way.

A quick wiki trip found these two articles:

Battlecruiser
Light Cruiser

If the Dutch got interested quicker then maybe at the very least we could have one or two of the new light cruisers in service. Only thing is they would just provide two new cruisers for the IJN to bomb or torpedo.....

Which brings us around to air cover. The Dutch need better planes, sure, but mostly they need more of them. But they simply can't support or afford more. Which means that unless you have stronger and earlier UK and US support, not much difference will be made.

The Fokker D.XXI's and G.1's would be good enough if they could get them produced in number.

Snowman23 said:

The Fokker D.XXI's and G.1's would be good enough if they could get them produced in number.

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That's the thing, though! You can produce as many as you want, but the Netherlands simply doesn't have the manpower or training facilities to support a defence against an equal number of Zeroes. You need external manpower. Brits and Yanks.

Richard Stanbery said:

As to manpower, it could ahve been raised to any level desired if the will to train and eqipt them had existed. I cant remember which one, but certain sections of the Indonesian populace was noted for loyal service to the Dutch going back many many years. Also, we could have seen open recruitment from other parts of the empire to fill Java.

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The Moluccans and the people from the small Sunda islands mainly but AFAIK recruitment wasn't restricted by that.

Also, people have to consider the political dynamic. The Dutch Admiralty knew that the ABDA fleet was inadequat to defeat the Japanese but Karel Doorman was ordered to attack anyway because the Dutch had to be seen trying to defend the DEI for after the war.