1960's - France after Nuclear War

[Michel Van]

this TL about France surviving a World War III in October 1961 or 1962
and transform from central rule Paris government into a Federal Republic (the 6. Republic)
after Paris is destroy by several Nukes durnig war

to the french member in this form, I need help on some topic:
had the 1960's French government something like the U.S. Continuity of Government plan ?

Continuity of Government - (COG)
The President, Key administration and Congressional leader, Joint Chefs of Staff and a reduced staff.
would transported to the varios COG sites
The menbers of Congress and a reduced staff arrive with a special Train.
too several Bunker Complex in Mountains of Virginia, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Maryland.


was altenative French Capital in case Paris get nuked ?

with death of President, Minister, Chefs of Staff, National Assembly/Senate
will take the local Military office/Animistrator the control of Regio / Departement ?

[The Red]

Originally Posted by Michel Van

this TL about France surviving a World War III in October 1961 or 1962
and transform from central rule Paris government into a Federal Republic (the 6. Republic)
after Paris is destroy by several Nukes durnig war

to the french member in this form, I need help on some topic:
had the 1960's French government something like the U.S. Continuity of Government plan ?

Continuity of Government - (COG)
The President, Key administration and Congressional leader, Joint Chefs of Staff and a reduced staff.
would transported to the varios COG sites
The menbers of Congress and a reduced staff arrive with a special Train.
too several Bunker Complex in Mountains of Virginia, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Maryland.


was altenative French Capital in case Paris get nuked ?

with death of President, Minister, Chefs of Staff, National Assembly/Senate
will take the local Military office/Animistrator the control of Regio / Departement ?

You should do some research first.

If you don't know this basic information then this TL will suffer.

[Michel Van]

Originally Posted by The Red

You should do some research first.

If you don't know this basic information then this TL will suffer.

i know, but can't finde any information on the questions in Internet.

for the moment i have only a Rough sketch of this TL

In Short form:
during the War, the NATO HQ in Paris get nuked by USSR.
also several NATO base in north France. around 10-13 milion People died.

France is a central government rule from Paris.
with out Paris, the Country turn in Chaos

after the Nuclear winter, France is overrun by Refugees.
from Belgium, Netherlands, Luxemburg, Germany, Britan and Italy
a new military government is form, to bring some kind of control over France.
most of Refugees are settle

the new military government start Dangerous gamble (with Spain, Portugal, Italy, Israel)
to secure resource for France like Food and Öl in Algeria
using it last reserve on NATO Military Hardware and Weapons (include Nuke)
to Invade Maroc, Algeria, Tunesia and attack Egypt to control the Suez channel

after Invasion alot of Refugees are relocate to Algeria...

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by Michel Van

i know, but can't finde any information on the questions in Internet.

for the moment i have only a Rough sketch of this TL

In Short form:
during the War, the NATO HQ in Paris get nuked by USSR.
also several NATO base in north France. around 10-13 milion People died.

France is a central government rule from Paris.
with out Paris, the Country turn in Chaos

after the Nuclear winter, France is overrun by Refugees.
from Belgium, Netherlands, Luxemburg, Germany, Britan and Italy
a new military government is form, to bring some kind of control over France.
most of Refugees are settle

the new military government start Dangerous gamble (with Spain, Portugal, Italy, Israel)
to secure resource for France like Food and Öl in Algeria
using it last reserve on NATO Military Hardware and Weapons (include Nuke)
to Invade Maroc, Algeria, Tunesia and attack Egypt to control the Suez channel

after Invasion alot of Refugees are relocate to Algeria...

There are some French members here, like Hendryk. Send a few PMs and ask for help and directions to any useful references.

[Lord Roem]

Originally Posted by Michel Van

was altenative French Capital in case Paris get nuked ?

with death of President, Minister, Chefs of Staff, National Assembly/Senate
will take the local Military office/Animistrator the control of Regio / Departement ?

Not being an expert in the matter, I would assume that you'd get a minor city like Grenoble as the interim capital, even though it's not very central. Another alternative could be Angers assuming that it's not too large.

In addition, you'll have to decide what happens to the overseas Departments like French Guiana.

As Bearcat says though, one of the French forumers would give you a much better idea than an amateur like me.

[Kara Iskandar]

Aha Grenoble as the capital, it would be awesome, still it's a small city at the time.
Lyon is a far better candidate I think (assumed it was not nuked). Tours is a likely candidate also (cf WWII).
Concerning the COG, I have no idea, still it's obvious that locally most of the power will be in the hands of the Préfets.

[Michel Van]

Thanks for advice !

Here some facts about central government rule from Paris.

Next to President, government and National Assembly/Senate
also most of the Animistraton are in Paris
exsample:
if a small Village somewere in france had to repaint a School building
A written request must be sent to Paris Animistraton !

because of this also all Major french Companies, manufacturers have there HQ in Paris.
and there Factories around the city in the Île-de-France region
even book publisher

So the destruction of Paris beheads literally the nation !


this map show inpact of 3x 4 MT H-bombs only on NATO HQs on Paris

yellow circle is range of the Heatwave of explosion and put building in fire
orange circle is range of Airblast who destroy buildings
Red circle is range of Radioactive with 500 rem (deathly)

The radioactive fallout will be distributed by october wind up to Brussle and Amsterdam !
do dangerous Isotope produce by H-Bome they have to wait to Thirty years
for longer period stay.

[Kara Iskandar]

Originally Posted by Michel Van

Thanks for advice !
Here some facts about central government rule from Paris.

Next to President, government and National Assembly/Senate
also most of the Animistraton are in Paris
exsample:
if a small Village somewere in france had to repaint a School building
A written request must be sent to Paris Animistraton !

Yup we're overcentralized in fact (and it was even worse in the 60ies).
With Paris and Ile de France gone, the Vallée du Rhône will surely become dominant (lots of industries, big cities and ports and so on) especially if the new authorities go for a mediterranean strategy.

[Lord Malikai]

I was doing some research a a while back on Soviet plans in a nuclear war and they apparently had no desire to nuke France at all. Their logic was that after a general Warsaw-NATO nuclear exchange the independent French nuclear branch (Force de frappe) would be left unfired until France was actually hit. Since the French would be able to selectively target whatever was left of the USSR their 1000 nukes would be sufficient to kill off all the Soviets that had survived the first round of nukes.
I'm not entirely positive how this would change before the general withdrawal of France from NATO in 1966-67, but since the French had an independent deterent by 1958 I'm guessing the Soviet plans would be basically the same.
So, in essence Paris should not be destroyed, which may not matter much when the nuclear winter rolls in, but at least France will be united when it does.

[jacobus]

You've come up with an interesting idea, I think. It's hard to say whether the Soviets would have struck at France or not, but I imagine the French would have used their FdF if NATO was attacked, whether Soviet troops had actually entered France or not.
Nuking military bases makes sense, but why hit population centers which have no such facilities? I'm not sure the Soviets would have thought that way, though. Taking out Paris would indeed decapitate France, and make its pacification easier, but I don't know about the rest. Certainly the Atlantic and Med ports were too valuable to target, unless absolutely necessary.
I believe both Grenoble and Lyons have universities, this would make them good sites for a provisional capital, after the destruction of Paris.
If this happened today, Algeria would be able to give the French military remnant a pretty good fight. But in the Sixties, Algeria was newly independent becoming independent in 1962 I think), and militarily weak. I think it could have been occupied (or re-occupied) without too much trouble, although there would be guerrilla resistance, of course. But if the guerrillas couldn't feed themselves, any resistance would become impossible.
French Guiana might become the Republic of Guiana, or independent in all but name. It would be effectively cut off from the mother country for some time. But when ties were eventually re-established, its launch facilities would become very valuable.
Good luck with your idea.

[fhaessig]

IIRC, french doctrine was that nukes would be put in play if the red army reached the Rhine at whatever place along its length, even if the war had been conventional up to then.

To Malikai, France never withdrew from Nato. NATO Integrated military command is not the same as NATO organisation.

[Kara Iskandar]

Originally Posted by jacobus

I believe both Grenoble and Lyons have universities, this would make them good sites for a provisional capital, after the destruction of Paris.

True, but Lyon is a far bigger and wealthier city, it's the old "capital des Gaules" after all.

IRC, french doctrine was that nukes would be put in play if the red army reached the Rhine at whatever place along its length, even if the war had been conventional up to then.

Exactly, the Rhine was the red line.

[Lord Malikai]

I meant that the French withdrawal from the integrated command and the ensuing removal of NATO bases from French soil made the Soviets consider the French and NATO to be allied but independent groups as opposed to a cohesive entity and that I wasn't sure pre-withdrawal if the Soviets still considered France effectively independent in nuclear matters. The British-US response for instance would be coordinated, as far as I know, which made the Soviets plan as though it was the USSR vs. NATO not the USSR vs. the US, UK, Germany etc, with an individual Soviet response to each military threat.
If the Soviets did consider the French to be integrated with NATO in the early 60's they probably would have hit Paris for command and control reasons like they would hit London and D.C. but if the Soviets considered France to be an independent nuclear entity they would probably not nuke it as they wouldn't in their later plans.

[MerryPrankster]

Would enough nukes be used in the 1960s to trigger a nuke winter?

[Archibald]

some points of interest

- 1 The force de frappe was operationnal only from October 1964, when the first squadron of Mirage IV took alert in Mont de Marsan

- 2 First french nucelar weapon was Gerboise bleue, Algeria. Detonated on February 13 1960.

- 3 If the french president is killed, the President du Senat suceed him. browse "president du senat" on google, wikipedia shjould give you a list of them.

- 4 When Paris is in trouble, Bordeaux usually become the capital (that happened in 1914, 1940). I know Bordeaux quite well if you want some details (living and working there, as city hall employee)

[Lord Roem]

Originally Posted by Archibald

- 4 When Paris is in trouble, Bordeaux usually become the capital (that happened in 1914, 1940). I know Bordeaux quite well if you want some details (living and working there, as city hall employee)

I agree, it was the one city I would have suggested as interim capital. However it really does depend on how many nukes are used, if only Paris, Bordeaux would become the new head of the administration. However, should an attempt be made to destroy all major cities then Bordeaux would be near the top of the list.

Hence why I suggested Grenoble, it's small enough to survive a limited exchange of weapons and it also too close to the Swiss Border, assuming the Soviets wish to keep Bern happy and safe from extreme fallout (which would be possible if this was in the sixties).

[Michel Van]

Thanks for Reply

Lord Malikai

Soviet plans in a nuclear war and they apparently had no desire to nuke France at all.

yes that true, but enermy was NATO an bevor 1966, NATO was based in France
include:
NATO HQ in Center of Paris (today University Paris Dauhine)
EUCOM in Camp de Loges at Paris
SACEUR in Rocquencourt at Paris
AFCENT & SHAPE in Fontainebleau bei Paris
also several NATO airbase to protect NATO HQs vor Sovjet Bomber



jacobus

whether Soviet troops had actually entered France or not.

German Democratic Republic will be heavy nuked by NATO and SAC
also will West Federal Republic of Germany nuked by Sovjets
so the Troop have march true radioaktive fallout to France

what for bizarre vision, Soviet troops occupied France and they died all after few weeks from radiation sickness !

MerryPrankster

Would enough nukes be used in the 1960s to trigger a nuke winter?

Unfortunately, yes after last study on that you need only 100KT for trigger a Nuclear Winter

Kara Iskandar

True, but Lyon is a far bigger and wealthier city, it's the old "capital des Gaules" after all.

in this TL Lyon become with Dijon the bigges city of France after the War

Thanks at Archibald for info with Bordeaux

Avignon play also a role in TL because the Pope take refuge after Rome gets Nuked

more info about Nuclear War in 1960
The Cuban Missile War Timeline by Amerigo Vespucci
http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...ad.php?t=65071

on Algeria
i look to put War date on October 1961
because then was Algeria part of France
and "Less" stockpile on nuclear weapons

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by Michel Van

Unfortunately, yes after last study on that you need only 100KT for trigger a Nuclear Winter

Are you sure about that?

I'm pretty sure individual 100 KT weapons have been set off without problems.

Heck, I'm pretty sure 50 MT weapons have been set off without problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_winter

[Michel Van]

befor we brake another nuclear winter Discusion lose

i read Owen B. Toon study about nuclear winter:

Atmospheric effects and societal consequences of regional scale nuclear conflicts
and acts of individual nuclear terrorism by O. B. Toon
http://www.atmos-chem-phys.net/7/197...-1973-2007.pdf

Climatic consequences of regional nuclear conflicts by O. B. Toon
http://www.atmos-chem-phys.net/7/200...-2003-2007.pdf

Massive global ozone loss predicted following regional nuclear conflict by O. B. Toon
http://lasp.colorado.edu/aerosol/mil...eOzoneLoss.pdf

Strange, each Threat about nuclear war has topic: is nuclear winter possible yes or no ?
in this TL is like this:
short period of Dusk during winter October to march followed by twilight for some years ending in 1965-66

Lord Roem

...to decide what happens to the overseas Departments like French Guiana.

good question
it depends how fast a new French government is formt
will they recall French Troops back to france and give up the overseas Departments ?

i think French Guiana is take over by Brasil or declare there independence after the war
simelar can happen to the others overseas Departments

[M79]

Well, how extensive is the war? Are we talking an "Alas Babylon" scenario with full-out war or a much more limited one? Heck, in a ground war there is a chance the Red Army might enter France and dictate their own terms! I'd like to know more about the war before making more conclusions.