Benedict Arnold eats a Bullet at Saratoga

[Aranfan]

What follows?

[Hashasheen]

Originally Posted by Aranfan

What follows?

He gets more iron in his diet and later dies of lead poisoning in old age.

[thehistorysage]

He is then the great hero of the Revolution and statues, a holliday and elementary schools are named after him. He might even be on the $10 or $20 bill.

[Geekhis Khan]

Arnold Street in Saratoga commemorates the sacrifice of a great martyr to the revolution. He's remembered by most lay-historians and upstate New Yorkers as a national revolutionary hero, but I doubt unless some poet canonizes him in print as propaganda that he's remembered much otherwise, since that was where he first made his name OTL.

Maybe the Continental Army does a little better without his espionage, but not in a game-changing way, I don't think.


BTW, POD from wiki: "During the fighting in the second battle, Arnold, operating against Gates' orders, took to the battlefield and led attacks on the British defenses. He was wounded in the same leg that was injured at Quebec late in the fighting. Arnold himself said it would have been better had it been in the chest instead of the leg."

[Ghost 88]

Originally Posted by Aranfan

What follows?

Why does he commit suicide?

[Claudius]

Now if Arnold had been killed at Lake Champlain, he wouldn't have been present at the first part of the battle of Saratoga (Freeman's Farm) and Gen. Burgoyne might have flanked General Gates, giving the Brits a tactical victory and delaying the French decision to enter the war.

[LittleSpeer]

Originally Posted by Ghost 88

Why does he commit suicide?

a great example of needing to explain your question better. Ghost is not stupid but other people are so EXPLAIN next time.

[Ghost 88]

Originally Posted by LittleSpeer

a great example of needing to explain your question better. Ghost is not stupid but other people are so EXPLAIN next time.

i r 2 stupider i thunks.

[Solomaxwell6]

Originally Posted by Geekhis Khan

Arnold Street in Saratoga commemorates the sacrifice of a great martyr to the revolution. He's remembered by most lay-historians and upstate New Yorkers as a national revolutionary hero, but I doubt unless some poet canonizes him in print as propaganda that he's remembered much otherwise, since that was where he first made his name OTL.

Speaking as a Saratogian myself... Not really. That's pretty much not true at all, actually.

"Arnold Street" is actually in Ballston Spa, not Saratoga, about five minutes away from my home. A tiny little pissant cul-de-sac in a tiny little pissant village. Not even sure if it actually refers to Benedict Arnold. On one hand, it's near streets with ARW themes (Lexington, Concord, Minuteman). On the other hand, it's actually surrounded by and next to streets with male first names (Frederick, Joseph, Charles, Emmett).

Maybe the Continental Army does a little better without his espionage, but not in a game-changing way, I don't think.

This I think is a bit more accurate. Honestly, Arnold didn't do anything particularly exciting after Saratoga, outside of his betrayal. A lot of tiny short term effects, but outside of the ever-unpredictable natue of butterflies, there's not going to be anything huge in the long term. This isn't going to suddenly make the Patriots be able to annex Canada or anything...

[robertp6165]

Originally Posted by Solomaxwell6

Speaking as a Saratogian myself... Not really. That's pretty much not true at all, actually.

"Arnold Street" is actually in Ballston Spa, not Saratoga, about five minutes away from my home. A tiny little pissant cul-de-sac in a tiny little pissant village. Not even sure if it actually refers to Benedict Arnold. On one hand, it's near streets with ARW themes (Lexington, Concord, Minuteman). On the other hand, it's actually surrounded by and next to streets with male first names (Frederick, Joseph, Charles, Emmett).

I'm pretty sure Geekhis Khan was speaking of an "Arnold Street" which would exist in an ATL where Benedict Arnold was killed in Saratoga...not commenting on the current nomenclature of streets in Saratoga in OTL. Most of us aren't Saratogians and have no idea what streets there in the city.

[Hashasheen]

Originally Posted by Solomaxwell6

This isn't going to suddenly make the Patriots be able to annex Canada or anything...

That's not what catboy would have you think.

[hzn5pk]

Arnold might not get hero of the Revolution status if he dies at Saratoga.

He disobeyed orders from Gates and entered the battle (good for us)

Had he died at Saratoga, who is to say that Gates would not go out of his way to lessen the effect that Arnold played during the campaign and final battle. In fact, Gates might take all the credit in saying that he ordered Arnold back into action to shore up the Patriot flank. Who else would have known to counter what Gates says happens?

Arnold gets crap and the street is named after Gates in Saratoga. After Camden, Gates gets an entire expressway named after him for the way he took off in retreat.

[Solomaxwell6]

Originally Posted by robertp6165

I'm pretty sure Geekhis Khan was speaking of an "Arnold Street" which would exist in an ATL where Benedict Arnold was killed in Saratoga...not commenting on the current nomenclature of streets in Saratoga in OTL. Most of us aren't Saratogians and have no idea what streets there in the city.

Ah, yes. Indeed.

[The Kiat]

Had he fell and failed at Valcour Bay, it is probable the Revolution would have been lost and 1777 would have been the year of the hangmen.

Originally Posted by Claudius

Now if Arnold had been killed at Lake Champlain, he wouldn't have been present at the first part of the battle of Saratoga (Freeman's Farm) and Gen. Burgoyne might have flanked General Gates, giving the Brits a tactical victory and delaying the French decision to enter the war.

[fhaessig]

Originally Posted by Claudius

Now if Arnold had been killed at Lake Champlain, he wouldn't have been present at the first part of the battle of Saratoga (Freeman's Farm) and Gen. Burgoyne might have flanked General Gates, giving the Brits a tactical victory and delaying the French decision to enter the war.

Quite possibly, it will means the french do not support the colonists with anything more than LaFayette and Hermione. Then the revolt fails and the rebels are crushed. What happens to Lafayette if/when he is captured?

This will also have an effect on the french revolution, likely it will be delayed a bit and it's course will be different from OTL.

[Cockroach]

Originally Posted by Aranfan

What follows?

After he falls, the troops he was leading rout, soon followed by the rest of the US army. The Battle of Saratoga ends up a British victory and the rebellion is crushed.

[Solomaxwell6]

Originally Posted by Cockroach

After he falls, the troops he was leading rout, soon followed by the rest of the US army. The Battle of Saratoga ends up a British victory and the rebellion is crushed.

No. Assuming we're using a slight alteration of his OTL gunshot wound as the PoD, then that's too late; the Americans already pretty much won. Even if we're not, the PoD can't be the first battle. In that one, Arnold's major contribution was in the planning beforehand (he moved several soldiers from a terrible position that would've probably resulted in heavy casualties to a much more advantageous one). After that, he stayed behind the lines, so no risk of getting shot. We'd have to make the PoD in the beginning of the second battle for any noticeabledifference at Saratoga itself. But even then, he's already led the Patriot soldiers out, the firing has begun, and the Americans heavily outnumber the British. I think his loss would lead to a bit of a morale loss, but, really, morale was so high in that battle I don't think it would've led to a rout.

[Hapsburg]

Originally Posted by fhaessig

What happens to Lafayette if/when he is captured?

He is executed for aiding the revolutionaries. Leading to the expensive and bloody War of Lafayette's Ear?