Denmark-Hanover and Sweden-Brandenburg

[Burton K Wheeler]

I have a half-conceived TL with a POD sometime in the late 16th century in which two of the main European powers are Denmark-Hanover and Sweden-Brandenburg. The exact nature of the unions isn't important, whether they are two kingdoms in personal union or the German territory is incorporated into Denmark or Sweden; if there is a Scandinavian monarch on the German throne or vice versa, etc. I don't know nearly enough about European dynastic politics during that period to begin to guess how to do it, so I ask you guys for help.

The only other thing that's critical to establish in Europe is that the 80 Years War ends in a Dutch defeat, if that helps or hinders you.

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by Burton K Wheeler

I have a half-conceived TL with a POD sometime in the late 16th century in which two of the main European powers are Denmark-Hanover and Sweden-Brandenburg. The exact nature of the unions isn't important, whether they are two kingdoms in personal union or the German territory is incorporated into Denmark or Sweden; if there is a Scandinavian monarch on the German throne or vice versa, etc. I don't know nearly enough about European dynastic politics during that period to begin to guess how to do it, so I ask you guys for help.

The only other thing that's critical to establish in Europe is that the 80 Years War ends in a Dutch defeat, if that helps or hinders you.

Denmark-Hanover could happen at least purely territorial with some changes in the 30 Years War (bigger Danish succes), so that the the title of Colonel of the Lower Saxon Circle become a heritable title. Sweden is easier just make a Hohenzollern marry a Swedish Princess and kill of the male heirs.

Ulrika Eleonora of Sweden and Christina of Sweden is both strong possiblities.

The other possiblity for a Danish-Hanoverian union, is that the Hanover doesn't inherited Britain, and Sophia Dorothea of Hanover marries Frederick IV of Denmark, and George II end up in a accident, before he get any children. Voila instant Denmark-Hanover (through the name would likely still be Denmark-Norway)

[Burton K Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

Denmark-Hanover could happen at least purely territorial with some changes in the 30 Years War (bigger Danish succes), so that the the title of Colonel of the Lower Saxon Circle become a heritable title. Sweden is easier just make a Hohenzollern marry a Swedish Princess and kill of the male heirs.

Ulrika Eleonora of Sweden and Christina of Sweden is both strong possiblities.

The other possiblity for a Danish-Hanoverian union, is that the Hanover doesn't inherited Britain, and Sophia Dorothea of Hanover marries Frederick IV of Denmark, and George II end up in a accident, before he get any children. Voila instant Denmark-Hanover (through the name would likely still be Denmark-Norway)

As regards Sweden, Ulrika is probably a bit late, and Christina's mother was a Brandenburger. I'll just have John Sigismund of Brandenburg marry a notional Swedish princess instead of Anna of Prussia.

Yeah, most of my big changes would be around the time of the 30 Years War, so I'll just have a big conquest like that. Ideally Danish territory would lie a bit west of the Lower Saxon Circle, though, up to the border of the Netherlands.

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by Burton K Wheeler

As regards Sweden, Ulrika is probably a bit late, and Christina's mother was a Brandenburger. I'll just have John Sigismund of Brandenburg marry a notional Swedish princess instead of Anna of Prussia.

Yeah, most of my big changes would be around the time of the 30 Years War, so I'll just have a big conquest like that. Ideally Danish territory would lie a bit west of the Lower Saxon Circle, though, up to the border of the Netherlands.

Denmark would still gain Oldenburg in 1667, and if Denmark is succesful, there lies the big nice Bishopric of Münster between the Lower Saxon Circle and Netherland, and East Friesland could always become part of Netherland in a different 30 Years War.

[Burton K Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

Denmark would still gain Oldenburg in 1667, and if Denmark is succesful, there lies the big nice Bishopric of Münster between the Lower Saxon Circle and Netherland, and East Friesland could always become part of Netherland in a different 30 Years War.

Perfect, thank you!

[Rudie]

If the Danish have more success in the 30 Years War, all the protestant states would probably be more successful. This means, that to prevent Dutch independence the 80 Year War need to end a lot sooner, at least 20 - 30 Years.
Maybe you could keep England catholic and by this preventing english support to the Dutch. This could give the Spanish enough of an advantage to win the war before the outbreak of TTL's 30 Years War.

[Burton K Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Rudie

If the Danish have more success in the 30 Years War, all the protestant states would probably be more successful. This means, that to prevent Dutch independence the 80 Year War need to end a lot sooner, at least 20 - 30 Years.
Maybe you could keep England catholic and by this preventing english support to the Dutch. This could give the Spanish enough of an advantage to win the war before the outbreak of TTL's 30 Years War.

I imagined a much earlier end to the 80 Year's war, perhaps even before 1600, as the primary POD. I hadn't figured exactly when I wanted that POD to be. I don't think that keeping England Catholic is what I want to do, though.

[Rudie]

Originally Posted by Burton K Wheeler

I imagined a much earlier end to the 80 Year's war, perhaps even before 1600, as the primary POD. I hadn't figured exactly when I wanted that POD to be. I don't think that keeping England Catholic is what I want to do, though.

Well, that was just my first idea regarding a Dutch defeat. I'm pretty sure that there are enough Spanish mistakes during the war that could be just as a POD leading to a Spanish victory.

Edit:
You could also have Spain not interventing against the coronation of Henry IV of France (maybe have him convert to Catholicism earlier) and instead focus stronger on the war against the Dutch. This could save the northern Netherlands for Spain and help ending the 80 Years War earlier with a spanish victory.

[Grey Wolf]

With regard to the Hannove part of the name, it would remain one of the Electorates (as long as all this is not butterflied or bulldozed away) so the name would remain viable and important. In terms of a territorial union, the use of the name would be subsumed under Denmark

A quick look up of info shows that the name Hannover was not used for the Electorate until 1636. It depends on what is happening elsewhere as to whether the same sequence of events come about

Sweden-Brandenburg actually makes more sense than Sweden-Poland since you have two Protestant lands coming together, rather than one of them Catholic

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[Gonzaga]

Originally Posted by Burton K Wheeler

I imagined a much earlier end to the 80 Year's war, perhaps even before 1600, as the primary POD. I hadn't figured exactly when I wanted that POD to be. I don't think that keeping England Catholic is what I want to do, though.

Maybe you could avoid the Spanish Armada. Until it the Duke of Parma's armies were doing quite well in Netherlands, with a big and well paid army. With the Armada his troops were diminished, the payments of the soldiers were delayed and thei movements were stopped for an entire year. Without the attempt of invade England these problems wouldn't happen, and Parma could have a chance of defeat the Dutch.

[Rudie]

Originally Posted by Gonzaga

Maybe you could avoid the Spanish Armada. Until it the Duke of Parma's armies were doing quite well in Netherlands, with a big and well paid army. With the Armada his troops were diminished, the payments of the soldiers were delayed and thei movements were stopped for an entire year. Without the attempt of invade England these problems wouldn't happen, and Parma could have a chance of defeat the Dutch.

Maybe the Armada could be avoided / the war with England delayed, if Mary Stuart is not beheaded.

[Thande]

Oddly enough I was pondering various X-Hanovers earlier today for my own timeline, including Denmark-Hanover. But I see Valdemar's answered this better than I ever could.

[Susano]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

The other possiblity for a Danish-Hanoverian union, is that the Hanover doesn't inherited Britain, and Sophia Dorothea of Hanover marries Frederick IV of Denmark, and George II end up in a accident, before he get any children. Voila instant Denmark-Hanover (through the name would likely still be Denmark-Norway)

Not necessarily. The other Welf lines certainly would raise claims, too.

And yes, the standard Sweden-Brandenburg scenario is Christina marrying the Great Elector. If that is too late, either the Vasas or the Hohenzollerns need to be cut down that there is an daughter as heir earlier. Personally, of course, I have absolutly no problems with Gustav Adolph not being born

Of course, this would prevent the Brandenburg-Prussia union. This means the Duchy of Prussia remains a Polish fief, or it becomes per conquest a Swedish fief, consideirng Swedens more powerful role in this timeline. It shortly was for a time IOTL, too, and a stronger Sweden could well rule the entire Baltic regions from Estonia to Prussia. Maybe even the entire southern Baltic coast down to Mecklenburg. Some Swedish-Polish wars seem almost ensured in this situation...

If Denmark manages to conquer the large north west German bishoprics (Münster, Osnabrück, Paderborn, Bremen, Verden - the latter two IOTL fell to Sweden after the 30Y War) then this would require a totally different 30 Years War, considering that the Lower Saxon War where Denmark invaded the Empire was quite early and IOTL quite short, so this requires major changes from early on. One could even deduce that if Denmark is so successful in grabbing imperial territory, then France and Sweden might be more sucessful, too, though its difficult to see what further territories Sweden could gain. France, though... there are a lot of Swabian territories with no strong interests involved, or they gain Lorraine and the Lorrainian Duke is compensated with some more secularised bishoprics (the Würzburg/Bamberg/Fulda territory, maybe)

Or alternatively, as a random idea... IOTL, France wanted to win territories staying inside the Empire, so that it could influence the Empire. The Habsburgs prevented that by making a big show out of that this theoretcially meant the French King would have to swear fealty to the Emperor, with all including symbolism, etc. Now, if the Protestant powers are stronger in this 30Y War, and Imperial power is more weakened, it could well end up that the Peace Treaty says such is not necessary, and hence the French King gains territories inside the Empire, maybe even the overlordship over the Upper Rhenish Circle (if Denmark gets the overlrodship over the Lower Saxon Circle)... I dont like it of course , but if the foreign meddling powers in the 30Y Wars are such stronger, its a possibility...

[Faeelin]

But if you crush the Dutch revolt, would the Habsburgs do worse in the Thirty Years War?

[Burton K Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

But if you crush the Dutch revolt, would the Habsburgs do worse in the Thirty Years War?

I was imagining them crushing the free provinces, but still having to deal with general revolts thoughout the whole Netherlands.

[Susano]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

But if you crush the Dutch revolt, would the Habsburgs do worse in the Thirty Years War?

Well, I applied a bit of reverse causality there. The Habsburgs have to do worse in the war, in order to allow Denmark to conquer all those bishoprics. But yes, if the Netherlands remain Spanish, then this means quite some ressources more on Habsburg side, so, hm, this an issue that needs to be adressed. Maybe for whatever reason the Spanish Habsburgs dont participate in the war?

[Burton K Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Susano

Not necessarily. The other Welf lines certainly would raise claims, too.

And yes, the standard Sweden-Brandenburg scenario is Christina marrying the Great Elector. If that is too late, either the Vasas or the Hohenzollerns need to be cut down that there is an daughter as heir earlier. Personally, of course, I have absolutly no problems with Gustav Adolph not being born

Of course, this would prevent the Brandenburg-Prussia union. This means the Duchy of Prussia remains a Polish fief, or it becomes per conquest a Swedish fief, consideirng Swedens more powerful role in this timeline. It shortly was for a time IOTL, too, and a stronger Sweden could well rule the entire Baltic regions from Estonia to Prussia. Maybe even the entire southern Baltic coast down to Mecklenburg. Some Swedish-Polish wars seem almost ensured in this situation...

Reading my mind, dude. I was also thinking that Poland-Lithuania could deal more effectively with Muscovy and remain more powerful for longer, even though the Szchlacta wasn't really built for long-term success.

If Denmark manages to conquer the large north west German bishoprics (Münster, Osnabrück, Paderborn, Bremen, Verden - the latter two IOTL fell to Sweden after the 30Y War) then this would require a totally different 30 Years War, considering that the Lower Saxon War where Denmark invaded the Empire was quite early and IOTL quite short, so this requires major changes from early on. One could even deduce that if Denmark is so successful in grabbing imperial territory, then France and Sweden might be more sucessful, too, though its difficult to see what further territories Sweden could gain. France, though... there are a lot of Swabian territories with no strong interests involved, or they gain Lorraine and the Lorrainian Duke is compensated with some more secularised bishoprics (the Würzburg/Bamberg/Fulda territory, maybe)

Or alternatively, as a random idea... IOTL, France wanted to win territories staying inside the Empire, so that it could influence the Empire. The Habsburgs prevented that by making a big show out of that this theoretcially meant the French King would have to swear fealty to the Emperor, with all including symbolism, etc. Now, if the Protestant powers are stronger in this 30Y War, and Imperial power is more weakened, it could well end up that the Peace Treaty says such is not necessary, and hence the French King gains territories inside the Empire, maybe even the overlordship over the Upper Rhenish Circle (if Denmark gets the overlrodship over the Lower Saxon Circle)... I dont like it of course , but if the foreign meddling powers in the 30Y Wars are such stronger, its a possibility...

That works quite well, I suppose, but if Denmark and Sweden are so successful against the Hapsburgs, would France necessarily even enter?

[Burton K Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Susano

Well, I applied a bit of reverse causality there. The Habsburgs have to do worse in the war, in order to allow Denmark to conquer all those bishoprics. But yes, if the Netherlands remain Spanish, then this means quite some ressources more on Habsburg side, so, hm, this an issue that needs to be adressed. Maybe for whatever reason the Spanish Habsburgs dont participate in the war?

Or the Spanish Hapsburgs are involved in a full-out war with the French? Say the French try to occupy the Low Countries instead of Lorraine/Swabia as you suggested?

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by Susano

Well, I applied a bit of reverse causality there. The Habsburgs have to do worse in the war, in order to allow Denmark to conquer all those bishoprics. But yes, if the Netherlands remain Spanish, then this means quite some ressources more on Habsburg side, so, hm, this an issue that needs to be adressed. Maybe for whatever reason the Spanish Habsburgs dont participate in the war?

Or the French join earlier, or the British join it. With British and French armies running anmok in the Rhineland and Netherland, the Habsburg may focus less on Denmark.

[Rudie]

Well, there could be another uprising in the Netherlands during TTL's 30 Years War, which is ultimately crushed by Habsburg but occupies forces for some years. Additionally the Huguenots in France could do worse, enabling France to enter the war earlier (which would also go well with Henry IV converting to Catholicism earlier...).