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Banned
Let's say that during World War II, Germany doesn't betray Russia. Do they have a chance of winning? Has this thread been done before?
Germany Doesn't Betray Russia
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WWII wouldn't exist as we know it. While I disagree with the notion that Russia would necessarily turn on Germany (Stalin's generally Quisling attitude to Germany might just make him get cold feet, and generally he always acted in a manner deathly afraid of German aggression) but Anti-Bolshevism is at the very heart of Fascism, and Hitlerite Ideology was built on planks of defeating the Communists and/or Jews forever.
Assuming Stalin does betray Hitler, however, it will likely happen in the summer of 1942, which a quite quality Red Army, and likely result in far less death and destruction in Russia, even though it is likely that the inexperienced Stavka will suffer some reversals.
Assuming Stalin does betray Hitler, however, it will likely happen in the summer of 1942, which a quite quality Red Army, and likely result in far less death and destruction in Russia, even though it is likely that the inexperienced Stavka will suffer some reversals.
I Blame Communism
Banned
Allowing German planes to quite obviously prepare an invasion isn't part of a pro-German policy, its insanity. Notably, Stalin was insane, and occasionally got unshakeable paranoid notions into his head, in this case that Germany would not attack so early, which not even a German-Russian dictionary featuring handy phrases like "Hand up!" "Where is the collective farm chairman?" and "Stop, I'll shoot!" could disabuse.
Stalin was insane, but not stupid. Once he's re-organised and re-built his armed forces and sees Britain still defiant, America edging nearer, and Germany still pre-occupied, why will he waste such a golden opportunity?
Invictus
Banned
See, German actually captured maps of Attack plans, not defensive ones. It confirmed a lot of suspicions that Poland was a enemy mine situation, not the beginings of a formal Alliance. This and the Holocaust as we know it only kicked into high gear later in the war so who knows.
Also, once the Soviet Warcrimes start, you can expect a lot of concentration camps to be recruited into Waffen SS memebrs when the shituation gets desperate. This and the US 'might' decide to destroy communism and give Patton his wet dream.
It could possibly butterfly into a far more Moderate 3rd Reich(To gain favor in the eyes of America) and a humble USSR.
Britain ill just have to accept some...changes.
Also, once the Soviet Warcrimes start, you can expect a lot of concentration camps to be recruited into Waffen SS memebrs when the shituation gets desperate. This and the US 'might' decide to destroy communism and give Patton his wet dream.
It could possibly butterfly into a far more Moderate 3rd Reich(To gain favor in the eyes of America) and a humble USSR.
Britain ill just have to accept some...changes.
I Blame Communism
Banned
Why? If I understand you correctly, the thing you're suggesting never happened OTL even once Germany was well and truly bent over and fucked.
The Nazis were hardly going to reign in their domestic madhouse for foreign policy ends. Also, you're dramatically overestimating America's pre-Col-War anti-communism, and underestimating the extent to which FDR saw Fascism was the greater threat.
We aren't going to negotiate with the Germans and that's for sure! *waves tiny flag*
This is some pretty wacky shit, but here we go.
Um, NO. No, they didn't. There is pretty much no evidence that there was ever any serious consideration of attacking Nazi Germany. Certainly, proposals were made, but as far as we know Stalin never signed off on any of them. Whether the option would look tempting enough to merit serious consideration by 1942 is another question entirely.
So, in summation, what you posted was pretty much 100% wrong.
Um, NO. No, they didn't. There is pretty much no evidence that there was ever any serious consideration of attacking Nazi Germany. Certainly, proposals were made, but as far as we know Stalin never signed off on any of them. Whether the option would look tempting enough to merit serious consideration by 1942 is another question entirely.
Actually, that's probably the exact opposite of what will occur. Historically, Wannsee was conferred and the Final Solution decided upon because Germany was concerned over the rate of Aryans being killed on the Eastern Front vs. current death-counts in their camps. Hell, in 1944, when Poland was being overrun, the SS didn't help - they monopolized the railroads so that they could 'evacuate' more Jews back into the Fatherland to be murdered.
Preposterous. FDR was always quite genial and sympathetic towards Stalin and the Union, and while there were some serious anti-Communists in the U.S. government, the Executive was always, to the hilt, against Fascism and willing to aid Communism to destroy it. By 1942, after Hitler's already dismembered half a dozen neutral nations for his mad dreams, you'll probably find no one willing to call the Soviets the greater threat. Besides, Japan will likely still attack Pearl Harbour (but maybe not, if they judge the Soviets to be too great a threat), and if so Hitler will still declare war on the U.S. as a show of support for his Eastern allies.
There is no reason I can imagine why the Third Reich would make any internal changes to satisfy what they view as the Mongrelized and decadent United States. You do realize that Hitler was a fucking madman, right?
Yes, since Roosevelt will support Hitler over Churchill. Riiight.
So, in summation, what you posted was pretty much 100% wrong.
Eurofed
Banned
It is still in the works, but I've started a WWII precisely to this effect, it takes some twists and turns to get there, but eventually it boils down to a moderate fascist Europe (after Hitler & Mussolini met a sudden demise) and a US that absorbed Canada and Australia after Britain fell teaming up against USSR and Japan.
Guys, this kind of scenario almost surely requires to remove Hitler one way or another, and a rather delicate management of political and diplomatic butterflies, but it can be made to work, if USSR attack first it can be made to look like the worse threat in the eyes of American public opinion and even FDR cannot defy it with impunity.
I Blame Communism
Banned
You do realise what I'm obligated to do in this situation, right?
*Drapes enormous Union Jack over self, sets "Land of Hope and Glory playing", improvises hasty barricade, takes up tommy gun, clears throat
Wi shall go oahn! To the end! We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air! We shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall nevah! Surrender!
You do realise what I'm obligated to do in this situation, right?
*Drapes enormous Union Jack over self, sets "Land of Hope and Glory playing", improvises hasty barricade, takes up tommy gun, clears throat
Wi shall go oahn! To the end! We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air! We shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall nevah! Surrender!
Oh, but that intruding little island must always be done away with somehow in furious German-Americawanks. It's just narrative housekeeping.
I doubt Stalin would attack first. His policy was consistent: To set the Imperialist Powers against each other. Hitler achieving stalemate with Britain would be to his liking, as it would mean division of the West into two hostile camps, and Stalin did not believe Hitler would make the mistake Germany had made in WWI-- wage a two-front war. So long as Fortress Britain stayed afloat due to massive US aid and refused to sue for peace, Stalin thought safe. Only if it looked like Germany would fall to Anglo-American forces would Stalin invade Germany, for Anglo-American hegemony up to the Elbe would be intolerable to paranoid Stalin obsessed with Imperialist Grand Conspiracy to Destroy Communism (and him).
Sachyriel
Banned
So when Pearl Harbour is bombed and Hitler declares war with the USSR still not having to deal with Nazis rolling into their country, would the USSR roll West or declare war on the US?
I Blame Communism
Banned
"Assuming Japan still launches attacks on America, Britain, and the Netherlands, and Hitler still declares war in Axis solidarity, does Stalin then, or soon after then, attack Hitler in your scenario?"
Why would he? It's not as if he is allied to any of the Allied Powers. He would probably kick back, down a bottle of vodka, and laugh at the stupidity of the Imperial Powers. Only when Normandy happens and Germany appears to be crumbling would he get involved-- like he did so opportunistically against Japan. Watching the stupid Imperialists fight each other would be one thing; watching the Imperialists get "unified" under the American Eagle would be quite a different proposition altogether.
Sachyriel
Banned
Well, it's Stalin, he might see it as the perfect time to win some support from the internationalist communist revolutionary crowd.