AH Challenge: Get China to industrialize at around the same time as Europe.

[antisocrates]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

Mmm. As late as the 18th century, China's level of development (and let's be careful here, China is like saying "Europe&quot was pretty similar to Europe's in a lot of ways. Some fewer advances; less science (but see Japan's Dutch Learning, for an idea on how to fix that), but probably a sturdier industrial package and a freer market.

Well, it wasn't the gadgets as much as the economics. To writ, there was no need for industrial revolution in China because it had labor and crafts that were superior to early stages of IR. IIRC, it took Britain until mid-19th century to surpass iron production in just north China, let alone entire China. And just as Qianglong said, there was nothing early IR could offer to China that China couldn't do just as well with traditional handicraft and abundant skilled labor. The crucial importance of railroads was military, and that was something even Europe didn't quite realize until 1860's. This is why I think China as whole was just too big and prosperous for the early stages of IR to be preferable to traditional economic structure. It would take divided, mercantile China for IR to have any chance at all. It was no accident that the Southern Song was the only imperial period when imperial receipts from trade surpassed that of agriculture-- because China was divided.

[antisocrates]

Originally Posted by rcduggan

Except that this Southern Ming would begin to industrialize centuries before Europe did. As tallwingedgoat pointed out, industrialization really did not start until the 18th and 19th centuries.

Trade doesn't necessarily lead to industrialization. The closest China to IR was the southern Song, and there's no guarantee that the specific conditions that existed in S Song would also exist in southern Ming. It would be probably easier to imagine S Ming to be something like the Dutch Republic or England before IR, just on a vastly grander scale. Really, all that China would need would be continous contact with Europe and the military need to keep up with Europe. A naval race would be the perfect situation. Navies typically are the most high tech and a dominant navy the sign of technological prowess. If S Ming found itself losing colonies to the British or the Dutch in the Indian Ocean because of superior shipbuilding and metalcasting, then the Chinese would have the reasons to pay attention to technology. Else they get left behind and get swallowed up by the Manchus.

[tallwingedgoat]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

Hrm. Optics, sure. But so what? Ditto for clockwork; it's pretty clear that the Qing (more specifically, Chinese craftsmen on the south china coast) managed to copy lots of European mechanical devices.

You're greatly underestimating the role played by optics. The world changed when Galileo first looked through a telescope and when that Dutch guy with the unspellable name first looked through a microscope. It made possible eye glasses which kept learned men useful past middle age.

Optics is a field of study that requires advanced mathematics rather than mere trial and error. It was pioneered by the Arabs and what originally made Newton's career. The Chinese were not able to make transparent glass, something mastered since Roman times elsewhere. That closed off a whole field of vital scientific study.

The Arabs were also practitioners of the scientific method, invented peer reviewed science journals. All of which of critical value to early modern European scientists.

As for mechanics, The Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Mechanical Devices by al-Jazari had machines surpassing the genius of Da Vinci. Simple practical devices like cams and camshafts would play important role in the Industrial Revolution. It was advancement in Arab mechanics that gave European clockmakers their boost. The Chinese could definitely benefit here. Despite a fairly sophisticated understanding of mechanics, they were missing some very basic things, like the Archimedean Screw.

[Aranfan]

So is splitting China up the way to go?

[Typo]

The closest China did get to industrializing before the 19th century was the result of a split, so probably.

[Cylon_Number_14]

Thanks for the clarifications on some Chinese developments during the Ming I'll admit that my knowledge on the area only comes from skimming Wiki and from reading that guy's book 1421: China Discovers America (A fun read if a bit overreaching ) I really wish I had been able to take those China classes at college, but they were all early morning classes

[Geekhis Khan]

What about if Japan industrializes? It had somewhat similar socio-economic and political conditions as England that *could* theoretically allow somewhat similar industrial revolution...maybe if Industrialization starts up there ala England China might start adopting state-dominated industry ala France.

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by Typo

The closest China did get to industrializing before the 19th century was the result of a split, so probably.

Actually, the Song industrial revolution hit a major setback when the Jurchens sacked Northern China and destroyed the industrial base.

Originally Posted by tallwingedgoat

You're greatly underestimating the role played by optics. The world changed when Galileo first looked through a telescope and when that Dutch guy with the unspellable name first looked through a microscope. It made possible eye glasses which kept learned men useful past middle age.

No, I am just saying that the 18th century Chinese had optics.

[tallwingedgoat]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

No, I am just saying that the 18th century Chinese had optics.

How is that possible? China could not make transparent glass.