AH Challenge: Get China to industrialize at around the same time as Europe.

[Aranfan]

As it says on the tin.

[Emperor Norton I]

Somehow have the Civil Service testes give focus to science and such things to spur similar changes.

[kasumigenx]

Originally Posted by Emperor Norton I

Somehow have the Civil Service testes give focus to science and such things to spur similar changes.

Or have china continue exploring like zheng he did.

[Cylon_Number_14]

Originally Posted by mimeyo

Or have china continue exploring like zheng he did.

Or, have the first Emperor of the Ming Dynasty be a little less ambitious. I've read that the emperor overstretched the resources even of China when he attempted to explore the seas, build Beijing, fix the Grand Canal, and attack the Mongols all at the same time, plus overprint money. Then the capitol burned down from a lightning strike and the Chinese ended up falling into a period of isolationism.

So, have the Emperor be a little more careful with his money and resources and we fairly open China gradually becoming more and more technologically advanced.

[Nugax]

Originally Posted by mimeyo

Or have china continue exploring like zheng he did.

Good no, those expeditions were tremendious wastes of money and effort, you need China to explore like the Europeans did - with the intent to turn a profit.

[antisocrates]

Not sure how it could have been done. China missed the boat when the southern Song fell. Perhaps if we had another divided China situation where the Ming loyalists successfully defend Nanjing and southern China, and we have Manchu north and Han south. In this case, the same economic factors that impelled southern Song could apply here and we could see the rise of mercantilist southern China with colonies in Africa and the Indian Ocean, and in constant contact with Europe. In this scenario, China could catch the second wave of industrialization along with Germany.

[tallwingedgoat]

Originally Posted by Cylon_Number_14

Or, have the first Emperor of the Ming Dynasty be a little less ambitious. I've read that the emperor overstretched the resources even of China when he attempted to explore the seas, build Beijing, fix the Grand Canal, and attack the Mongols all at the same time, plus overprint money. Then the capitol burned down from a lightning strike and the Chinese ended up falling into a period of isolationism.

So, have the Emperor be a little more careful with his money and resources and we fairly open China gradually becoming more and more technologically advanced.

Yongle was the third, not first emperor of the dynasty. The capitol never burned down. A part of the Forbidden City (imperial palace) did. The major disaster of this era was a flood which wiped out much of the tax base at a time when budget was already stretched.

The Ming dynasty was a prodigal institution. The emperors had way too many concubines, eunuchs, and royal off springs to support. Among what you listed, you can't say any were unnecessary. Yongle however also pursued two other crazy spending programs which were mistakes, namely building the new Great Wall and the Ming Tombs.

[tallwingedgoat]

European industrialization didn't get cracking until the early 19th century. A POD for China can be much later. Say a different outcome to the Chinese Rites Controversy in Rome, allowing the Jesuit Order to keep the Chinese up to date on the latest development in European science and technology.

If we're going back to the Ming dynasty, best bet would be to spread Arab science to China. By this time the Arabs were more advanced in chemistry, mathematics, medicine, optics, mechanical devices etc. There's a lot of threads on how the Ming voyages missed the boat on the discovery of new territories (which the Chinese would likely have ignored anyways), but nothing on the opportunity lost for technological exchange with the Arabs.

[Typo]

A surviving Southern Ming is probably the best bet, a Chinese state which loses half its agricultural heartland will try to compensate

[rcduggan]

Originally Posted by Typo

A surviving Southern Ming is probably the best bet, a Chinese state which loses half its agricultural heartland will try to compensate

Except that this Southern Ming would begin to industrialize centuries before Europe did. As tallwingedgoat pointed out, industrialization really did not start until the 18th and 19th centuries.

[Typo]

Southern Ming would start its existence in the mid 17th century.

Let it hang on for a century and a half longer without industrializing yet (but perphaps develope an overseas empire or sphere of influence in Southeast asia and the Pacific, maybe even somewhere further in this time), and it'll be around when britain started industrializing.

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by tallwingedgoat

If we're going back to the Ming dynasty, best bet would be to spread Arab science to China. By this time the Arabs were more advanced in chemistry, mathematics, medicine, optics, mechanical devices etc. There's a lot of threads on how the Ming voyages missed the boat on the discovery of new territories (which the Chinese would likely have ignored anyways), but nothing on the opportunity lost for technological exchange with the Arabs.

Hrm. Optics, sure. But so what? Ditto for clockwork; it's pretty clear that the Qing (more specifically, Chinese craftsmen on the south china coast) managed to copy lots of European mechanical devices.

A Ming-Qing division would be useful because you keep some of the late Ming stuff, like a resurgent interest in the natural world, freer women, more rapid fashion changes (Laugh, but this is key towards building a textile industry), and can be combined with a Southern China that wants to expand overseas.

Who can forget the dread pirate Coxinga's attack on Jakarta?

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by antisocrates

Not sure how it could have been done. China missed the boat when the southern Song fell. Perhaps if we had another divided China situation where the Ming loyalists successfully defend Nanjing and southern China, and we have Manchu north and Han south. In this case, the same economic factors that impelled southern Song could apply here and we could see the rise of mercantilist southern China with colonies in Africa and the Indian Ocean, and in constant contact with Europe. In this scenario, China could catch the second wave of industrialization along with Germany.

Mmm. As late as the 18th century, China's level of development (and let's be careful here, China is like saying "Europe") was pretty similar to Europe's in a lot of ways. Some fewer advances; less science (but see Japan's Dutch Learning, for an idea on how to fix that), but probably a sturdier industrial package and a freer market.

[B_Munro]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

Mmm. As late as the 18th century, China's level of development (and let's be careful here, China is like saying "Europe") was pretty similar to Europe's in a lot of ways. Some fewer advances; less science (but see Japan's Dutch Learning, for an idea on how to fix that), but probably a sturdier industrial package and a freer market.

There was an article by "Great Divergence" Pomeranz in that "Unmaking the West" collection of historical AH speculation on the difficulties China would have had in duplicating Europe's 18th-19th century trajectory OTL: I'll take a look tomorrow and see if I can summarize what he had to say.

Bruce

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by B_Munro

There was an article by "Great Divergence" Pomeranz in that "Unmaking the West" collection of historical AH speculation on the difficulties China would have had in duplicating Europe's 18th-19th century trajectory OTL: I'll take a look tomorrow and see if I can summarize what he had to say.

Bruce

I'm aware of it, and a fan. But note he posited a China without an industrializing Europe. Myself, I am a fan of feedback.

East Meets West! Let a thousand steel mills bloom!

[B_Munro]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

I'm aware of it, and a fan. But note he posited a China without an industrializing Europe. Myself, I am a fan of feedback.

East Meets West! Let a thousand steel mills bloom!

Hmm. Would a China which had steam engines and more steel production than OTL, but no real "revolution" going on, be any likelier than OTL to decide early that European methods were the shit? Would an Emperor from a China that was _better_ than OTL at manufacturing have any reason to feel differently than Quianlong

"our Celestial Kingdom possesses all things in prolific abundance. We have never valued strange objects nor do we have the slightest need for your country’s manufacturers."

I can see China being better positioned for modernization than OTL, but I don't see it catching up before the 20th century, not without rather earlier PODS than the second half of the 18th century...


Bruce

[Alexandru H.]

Until the 1780s China was simply too advanced to pay any attention to Europe's economical development. Oh, and the fact that the europeans pursued colonies doesn't mean exploration is a requirement for industralization, quite the contrary as Spain or Portugal proved it. What China lacked was competition: Europe was divided politically, confessionally, economically. Its intellectual class had been radicalized because of the religious conflicts; its states competed for domination, therefore were interested in aquiring all the positive developments of their neighbours.

18th century China was too successful to learn such lessons. When you conquer an empire using an outdated army, it's really not logical to reform it.

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by B_Munro

"our Celestial Kingdom possesses all things in prolific abundance. We have never valued strange objects nor do we have the slightest need for your country’s manufacturers."

I will say if you're taking this viewpoint of China, go reread Pomeranz and report back.

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by B_Munro

Hmm. Would a China which had steam engines and more steel production than OTL, but no real "revolution" going on, be any likelier than OTL to decide early that European methods were the shit? Would an Emperor from a China that was _better_ than OTL at manufacturing have any reason to feel differently than Quianlong

To clarify: Qianlong's statement to a watery island demanding equality of status with the Celestial Empire, when Britain wasn't offering technology or goods China lacked or wanted, isn't really dispositive to me.

[B_Munro]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

I will say if you're taking this viewpoint of China, go reread Pomeranz and report back.

Hm? My point was that a more industrially developed - and possibly militarily more formidable as a side effect - China would be slower than OTL to concede these pushy barbarians might be worth closely investigating, not that Quianlong was talking out of his ass in 1793. I think your "China-basher" antennae are, like Bender's Gaydar ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/urbanbohemian/97938597/ ), a little too sensitive.

Bruce