Have Japan a predominately Christian (preferable Catholic) nation today. I would prefer the POD to be when they kicked the Christians out, but you could use another. Also, Japan should be at least as powerful now as it is in OTL.
Christian Japan
- Thread starter DominusNovus
- Start date
I don't know too much about the Japanese wars of unification, but could any of the warlords be moved to convert? Probably not Ieyasu, but maybe someone else? Christianity was quite popular at the time, and quite a few nobles and samurai apparently at least sympathised with it. If he wins, you could get a Japan where the Catholic church is openly supported by the state. This country would not seal itself off against outside influences but rather enter into trade relations with the Portuguese. Given the way they duplicated and adapted Western technology, bullied and terrorised their neighbors, and generally acted like honorary whites, they could have a big future ahead. I don't see many countries outside of Europe having a chance at the colonialism game, but I could see the Japanese making it...
A Catholic, Japanese-dominated China Sea, with Japanese ships ranging across the Pacific by the 1680s . . . would the Spanish have a chance of holding on to the Philippines come the next confrontation with Portugal if the Japanese stage a landing? I think there's a timeline like that in one of the GUPRS books, but I can't quite remember.
A Catholic, Japanese-dominated China Sea, with Japanese ships ranging across the Pacific by the 1680s . . . would the Spanish have a chance of holding on to the Philippines come the next confrontation with Portugal if the Japanese stage a landing? I think there's a timeline like that in one of the GUPRS books, but I can't quite remember.
If Catholic Christianty started to spread out of Japan, likely Malaya etc would have gone Christian instead of Muslim.
Flocculencio
Donor
Trouble with that is that Malaya and Indonesia were converted to Islam long before the Portugese even reached Malacca.
Several daimyo were converted to Christianity in the 16th-17th century, mostly in the south-west. Although Hideyoshi was ordering the expulsion of missionaries as early as 1587, complete prohibition of Christianity only came after the Shimabara rebellion of 1637-38.
I don't think any of the Kyushu Christian daimyo were in any position to unify Japan, nor that any of the actual unifiers were likely to convert. Possibilities:
- The Catholic invasion that was always feared actually happens. A Spanish armada lands in Kyushu, supported by the local Christian daimyo. Japan becomes a Spanish colony
- The Shimabara rebellion never takes place, or is snuffed out by local authorities. The Tokugawa are thus never moved to finally outlaw Christianity, and despite intermittent persecutions it gradually gains strength throughout the 17th-19th centuries, finally being siezed upon as a way to modernise the nation after the Meiji Restoration
Can't say I see either as especially likely.
Alternatively, the first Nestorian Christians are thought to have arrived around the 5th century...
I don't think any of the Kyushu Christian daimyo were in any position to unify Japan, nor that any of the actual unifiers were likely to convert. Possibilities:
- The Catholic invasion that was always feared actually happens. A Spanish armada lands in Kyushu, supported by the local Christian daimyo. Japan becomes a Spanish colony
- The Shimabara rebellion never takes place, or is snuffed out by local authorities. The Tokugawa are thus never moved to finally outlaw Christianity, and despite intermittent persecutions it gradually gains strength throughout the 17th-19th centuries, finally being siezed upon as a way to modernise the nation after the Meiji Restoration
Can't say I see either as especially likely.
Alternatively, the first Nestorian Christians are thought to have arrived around the 5th century...
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Duncan said:
Christianity doesn't seem to be terribly compatible with "Japaneseness", and other than in a few superficial ways never really took root in Japan.
Many of the "Christian" Daimyo seem to have converted merely to improve trade/military contacts with the Catholic powers and often merely nominally converted their subjects.
Wasn't Nobunaga Christian?
I doubt he could ever have attempted to christianise the country but with a line of Christian Shoguns we can forget any ban and it might actually become rather fashionable. There'd probably be some sort of traditionalist backlash though.
Wasn't Nobunaga Christian?
I doubt he could ever have attempted to christianise the country but with a line of Christian Shoguns we can forget any ban and it might actually become rather fashionable. There'd probably be some sort of traditionalist backlash though.
I seem to remember that the Jesuit missionaries deliberately targeted people in positions of power for conversion. This gave a misleading impression about the depth of popular support for Christianity.
Nobunaga wasn't a Christian as far as I know. I suppose he welcomed anything that would increase the range of religious opinion in the country and so weaken any move towards powerful cults. He was approached by a Buddhist sect who wanted him to ban Christianity. He asked how many cults there were in Japan. They replied (after some head scratching), thirty five (I forget the exact figure, but this is the gist of it.) He ended the discussion by saying that in that case, a thirty fifth wouldn't make any difference.
AHP- I think you may be confusing cause and effect here. I got the impression (though I've only a general reader's knowledge of these matters) that the Shimabara Rebellion was caused by a crackdown on Christianity, not vice versa. Also (this is just a vague memory, I'm afraid), wasn't the Rebellion rather dubiously Christian, having elements in it foreign to orthodox Christianity, rather like the Taiping?
Nobunaga wasn't a Christian as far as I know. I suppose he welcomed anything that would increase the range of religious opinion in the country and so weaken any move towards powerful cults. He was approached by a Buddhist sect who wanted him to ban Christianity. He asked how many cults there were in Japan. They replied (after some head scratching), thirty five (I forget the exact figure, but this is the gist of it.) He ended the discussion by saying that in that case, a thirty fifth wouldn't make any difference.
AHP- I think you may be confusing cause and effect here. I got the impression (though I've only a general reader's knowledge of these matters) that the Shimabara Rebellion was caused by a crackdown on Christianity, not vice versa. Also (this is just a vague memory, I'm afraid), wasn't the Rebellion rather dubiously Christian, having elements in it foreign to orthodox Christianity, rather like the Taiping?
Prunesquallor said:
Not something I am an expert on, but as far as I can see the rebellion was mainly against taxes. It certainly wasn't entirely a Christian movement, so while the existing repressive policies against Christianity may have contributed, they certainly weren't the main cause. See for instance
http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/S/Shimabara-Rebellion.htm
The Jesuits may have gone out of their way to try to convert nobles and leaders, but Christianity did spread a great deal among the lower classes. I believe there was a Christian peasant rising that was brutally put down somewhere.
Plus, there were 30,000 or so "hidden Christians" who survived the centuries of Shogunate persecution until the Meiji Restoration and religious freedom. The fact that many remained faithful over such a long time indicates a depth of belief.
Plus, there were 30,000 or so "hidden Christians" who survived the centuries of Shogunate persecution until the Meiji Restoration and religious freedom. The fact that many remained faithful over such a long time indicates a depth of belief.
The rise of Oda Nobunaga was so unlikely that it borders on ASB (he began his career by defeating an army twelve times his own because of a providential storm). If this first battle had gone the way it should have, Nobunaga, Tokugawa and Hideyoshi disapears from history and a kyushu (and christian) unification. Just give a christian daymo (there were some) the stroke of luck Nobunaga got.
The consequences : Japan would not seal off and may end up with a colonial empire in the Pacific. A japanese Alaska or Oregon is by no way impossible.
A successful spanish invasion, however, is pretty much ASB. The Spaniards were few in number and would face ennemies at roughly the same technological level. Remember Nagashino.
The consequences : Japan would not seal off and may end up with a colonial empire in the Pacific. A japanese Alaska or Oregon is by no way impossible.
A successful spanish invasion, however, is pretty much ASB. The Spaniards were few in number and would face ennemies at roughly the same technological level. Remember Nagashino.
I was thinking about making a thread about this (Japan is unified by Christians in the Sengoku Period) thou from this thread it seems a bit unlikely. (Keep in mind, however that Christianity has been doing well in Korea of late (last Century or so), so it can’t be that incompatible with East Asian Culture.)
Last edited:
Hendryk
Banned
A rule of thumb seems to be: in order for Christianity to successfully implant itself in a given East Asian society, said society must have been "softened up" by colonization, war, deliberate destruction of pre-existing culture, and, in the case of Cambodia, outright genocide. Either that or the natives are simply converted at gunpoint, like the Filipinos under Spanish rule. So it depends how much suffering one is willing to inflict on an ATL Japan, considering that even nuclear bombings and unconditional surrender didn't shake it up enough for Christianity to interest more than anecdotal numbers of Japanese in OTL.Hermanubis said:
Last edited:
Ah, true, I guess…(thou in the case of Korea, it was the Japanese doing the “colonization, war and deliberate destruction of pre-existing culture”, thou I guess it doesn’t really matter who is doing it, if the results are the same… )
Last edited:
What about the following? Some japanese pirates raid Manila. The Spanish get enraged and send some troops, invading Japan. They just occupy one port and one small region. The local daimyos start trading with the spanish and profitting from the Manila Gallion. Eventually some of them find out that if they convert to catholicism they can settle in Manila and Mexico getting a bigger share of the trade.
The spaniards find the climate of Japan more suitable for colonization than the Philippines and soon groups of castillian adventurers, soldiers and priests may be found even in the imperial Palace.
Eventually the emperor finds that most of his noblemen had converted and, looking for spanish support, for his claims over Korea he converts.
The spaniards find the climate of Japan more suitable for colonization than the Philippines and soon groups of castillian adventurers, soldiers and priests may be found even in the imperial Palace.
Eventually the emperor finds that most of his noblemen had converted and, looking for spanish support, for his claims over Korea he converts.
Leo Caesius
Banned
Keep in mind that South Korea has been thoroughly "westernized." They were ruled by an authoritarian government until the 80s that made western-style economic growth its chief priority. The Korea of today is very different from the period we're discussing.Hermanubis said:
I'd argue that Hendryk's rule of thumb applies even more generally, and beyond Christianity; while people are content, they will not consider breaking with tradition or abandoning their faith. It's only in times of radical change and transition periods that new faiths find an attentive audience. A shock to the system, such as wars of conquest, would provide the soil for a new ideology to grow.
Hendryk
Banned
It depends, really. Buddhism didn't need to completely destabilize Asian societies in order to spread, it merely waited for new dynasties or periods of interregnum; Japan's conversion to Buddhism during the Nara period was a mostly peaceful time. Even Islam, a religion for which I have no love lost, seems to have been able to spread mostly peacefully in the area, following the trade routes through the Indonesian archipelago and all the way to the Southern Philippines.Leo Caesius said:
Thinking about this possible and deeper hispanic presence in Japan. How could we have both cultures intermixing? Could we have japanese uses and ideas coming to Europe through Spain in those years? Consider that in certain aspects japanese and spanish culture had many elements in common: honor, martial culture, extreme devotion to leaders... Maybe we could not only have a catholic japan, but castillian samurais as well.