Islam remains illegal in Europe

George Carty · Aug 4, 2009

Traditionally it was illegal to be a Muslim in Christian Europe - what if this was still the case today? (Assume that Jewish emancipation occurs as in OTL by the way...)

Would it throw WWI in the Germans' favour? (Because the British and especially the French couldn't use Muslim colonial troops on the Western Front perhaps, or perhaps because the German backed call for jihad against the Allies isn't such a damp squib...)

Or would it have little significant effect until post-WWII, by either changing the composition of immigrant populations (eg if Muslims were barred from Britain, then I'd expect there'd be more Hindu Indian immigrants to compensate), or reducing them significantly (if Muslims were barred from France, then only a few sub-Saharan areas plus Indochina would be viable sources of immigrants)?

If Turkey and other Muslim countries are not considered, are any non-Muslim countries possible alternatives to supply West Germany with Gastarbeiter?

Mike Stearns · Aug 4, 2009

I think the result would be more, and worse, terrorism in Europe.

MerryPrankster · Aug 4, 2009

Mike Stearns said:
I think the result would be more, and worse, terrorism in Europe.

How can angry disenfranchised Muslims commit terrorism if they're not allowed in in the first place?

MrP · Aug 4, 2009

What would be the reasoning behind it? For instance, if their armies say they need Muslim troops to fight in Europe, why would governments refuse the requests? Do you mind if I ask when this legislation was repealed IOTL? I would try to google, but I realised that "Muslims illegal Europe" was probably going to throw up a billion loony hate sites and nothing useful!

ninebucks · Aug 4, 2009

Facepalm. filler

George Carty · Aug 4, 2009

MrP said:
What would be the reasoning behind it? For instance, if their armies say they need Muslim troops to fight in Europe, why would governments refuse the requests?

In other words you think this is an ASB WI due to the military exigencies of WWI?

MrP said:
Do you mind if I ask when this legislation was repealed IOTL?!

Don't know about mainland Europe, but in Britain Islam was legalized in 1813 by the Doctrine of the Trinity Act, which extended the Act of Toleration 1689 (which legalized non-CoE Protestantism) to apply to unitarian worship.

MrP said:
I would try to google, but I realised that "Muslims illegal Europe" was probably going to throw up a billion loony hate sites and nothing useful!

Yes, that's a problem when looking up anything Islam-related

Susano · Aug 4, 2009

George Carty said:
Traditionally it was illegal to be a Muslim in Christian Europe

No. Just... no. Thats just not true.

Would it throw WWI in the Germans' favour?

Or would it have little significant effect until post-WWII

If Turkey and other Muslim countries are not considered, are any non-Muslim countries possible alternatives to supply West Germany with Gastarbeiter?

Argh, butterflies! With a PoD in the middle ages you still have WW1, WW2 and the guest workers phenomen? What?

carlton_bach · Aug 4, 2009

The problem is that this would require huge changes in the way Europe works. It was traditionally not sio much illegal to be a Muslim as impossible to be part of society while not being a Christian. Not many countries actually expelled Muslims (though it was, of coursem those with significant muslim populations that did).

As early as the secenteenth century, you had Muslims living in European countries - granted, not many - and once Russia and Austria started gobbling up former Ottoman territory, it was pretty much impossible to keep up any such efforts, even if they had tried. The prevailing attitude to Muslim inhabitants in the 18th and 19th century was indifference. Except in the Balkans and to a lesser extemnt France, this was not regarded widely as a problem until the second half of the twentieth century. You would need a reason why it would be, because the idea that European countries keep up an unenforced custom as codified law through sheer inertia is pretty much inconceivable.

By way of an example: Helsinki had its first mosque in the late 18th century. It was built for a Tatar cavalry unit based there. IIRC the first mosque in Germany was built for Ottoman diplomats. There is no way I can see anyone finding a problem with this, and this is what being Muslim in Europe looked like for centuries - not a lot, and there for a specific reason.

MrP · Aug 4, 2009

George Carty said:
In other words you think this is an ASB WI due to the military exigencies of WWI?

I think that's certainly something to consider. However -

George Carty said:
Don't know about mainland Europe, but in Britain Islam was legalized in 1813 by the Doctrine of the Trinity Act, which extended the Act of Toleration 1689 (which legalized non-CoE Protestantism) to apply to unitarian worship.

- an 1813 date gives one time to fiddle with the world enough to avoid at least some problems. One could rejig the British Army, remove India from the Empire, &c, &c. However, I'm not getting a good sense why Islam would be left out, as it were. I'm afraid I'm better on General Whatsisname wanting more chaps for Offensive Killemall than I am on UK parliamentary legislation!

George Carty said:
Yes, that's a problem when looking up anything Islam-related

The price of living now and not in a hundred years' time, I fear. Then the 'net will be filled with jeremiads against the Vulcans.

Emperor Qianlong · Aug 4, 2009

Facepalm? Oh yes, quite.

Thing is, the problem that the present-day world does have with Muslim radicals didn't exist a century ago for a combination of reasons:

- European countries weren't immigrant countries, rather emigrant countries.
- Islam was, relative to today, a marginal religion. Europe's population was about 400 million out of 1.6 billion people, which is about 25%. Today, Europe has a population of 700 million out of nearly 6.8 billion, which is about 11%. And in particular Africa and Asia have been gaining relatively in the century since then.
- A number of reasons for Muslims to acutely hate the West (in particular the existence of Israel) didn't exist.
- A number of radical/fundamentalist Islamic ideologies (in particular Wahabism of Saudi Arabia) didn't exist yet, or were rather marginal.
- Technological advancements didn't exist back then that allow terrorists today to communicate globally. If, say, a group of Berbers in Algeria staged an attack against the French, then the chances of someone in the Dutch East Indies finding out about that were basically nil.

As a result, there was no reason for the West to be wary of Islam back then, and conversely there was no acute reason for Muslim radicals to attack the West.

Prem_Rack · Aug 4, 2009

As for I can tell, Islam actually wasn't banned in many european countries during this period

Tobit · Aug 4, 2009

The reconquista is part of Spanish history and is brought up as the formative event of Spanish culture. Aragon too had to deal with the question of conquered muslims, and many interesting solutions to the problem . Known as Mudejars, muslims made up an important minority in the Aragonese Empire. By law they were all under the jurisdiction of the King, written into law by the Fueros de Aragon. This put them firmly within the feudal frame work, yet separate from other feudal powers. This situation led to the development of an important class of workers within Aragonese society. From lowly serfs to important merchants and moneylenders, muslims filled almost every type of role within the community. The medical jobs were much more Muslim than any other job however: “Jewish and Saracen physicians, however, are to be examined by physicians of their own law and sect, if any are available, but with one Christian physician present at their examination. In the absence of physicians of their own law and religion they shall be examined by two Christian physicians; after this examination, if they are found acceptable, they shall have to swear publicly to practice well and legally before they are admitted to the profession.” This is minor caveat compared to the inquisition that was to occur in the 14th century. This situation however was not all united society. Slavery of Muslims was a major part of the economy of aragon. In 14th century the slave population boomed and soon as many as 60 slaves in an individual household is recorded in areas such as Valencia and Minorca.

So knowing this how could the economy of Aragon or any part of Iberia function if islam was simply illegal? Since slavery of muslims was so important to the Iberians, wouldn't there be a huge number of slave holders who would have to give up their slaves? Slaves were in actuality a huge part of economy of all of Medieval europe Muslim slaves were part of that.

Burton K Wheeler · Aug 4, 2009

MerryPrankster said:
How can angry disenfranchised Muslims commit terrorism if they're not allowed in in the first place?

No one who's not legally allowed to be in a country can enter. It's a scientific phenomonon similar to vampires crossing your threshhold.

George Carty · Aug 4, 2009

carlton_bach said:
The problem is that this would require huge changes in the way Europe works. It was traditionally not so much illegal to be a Muslim as impossible to be part of society while not being a Christian.

Reasonable point - it may be far-fetched that European societies would end persecution of Jews and of minority Christian denominations, but not of Muslims...

Emperor Qianlong said:
- European countries weren't immigrant countries, rather emigrant countries.

That's why I thought it might have little effect until post-WWII.

And by the way, I wasn't really thinking in terms of contemporary OTL Islamist radicalism when proposing this WI.

Typo · Aug 4, 2009

FEED TROLL MORE PLZ

basileus · Aug 4, 2009

ninebucks said:
Facepalm. filler

Seconded. *Facepalms*

Tobit · Aug 4, 2009

George Carty said:
Reasonable point - it may be far-fetched that European societies would end persecution of Jews and of minority Christian denominations, but not of Muslims...
That's why I thought it might have little effect until post-WWII.

And by the way, I wasn't really thinking in terms of contemporary OTL Islamist radicalism when proposing this WI.

It would alter Europe quite a bit, far before WWII. Considering the integral part Muslims played in the Iberian economy and education system. All of Europe would likely be set back in its development. In Iberia Muslim doctors tended to Kings while Muslim farmers continued the irrigation systems set in place prior to the reconquista. Valencia for instance was fed by Muslim irrigation systems maintained due to the help of Muslim farmers.

Also if Muslims are illegal, then what do you do when you annex somewhere like Granada or Sicily? Genocide the illegals? Deport them? Convert them?

carlton_bach · Aug 5, 2009

Tobit said:
Also if Muslims are illegal, then what do you do when you annex somewhere like Granada or Sicily? Genocide the illegals? Deport them? Convert them?

That problem was where the forwantofabetterword ban on Islam came from originally. The answer is: all of the above, by the way. Spain and IIERC Portugal and Angevin Sicil had, for a while (NOT in the Middle Ages, when they had sizeable Muslim populations but after, when they had got rid of them) laws that forbade Muslims from living in the country. These are not typical of medieval Europe, but they existed.

You can probabnly trace the development to the Lateran councils, when the church strongly came out against the possibilitsy of coexisting with anyone of a different faith on terms other than those of strict segregation. In reality, it probably proved poorly enforceable except where this was done with extreme prejudice.

Abdul Hadi Pasha · Aug 5, 2009

basileus said:
Seconded. *Facepalms*

I don't know what all this facepalm crap is - I don't consider the OP trollish at all. Muslims, other than diplomats, and even then not until the mid-19th c, and occasionally a few merchants, were not welcome in Europe, period. Even the Ottomans generally appointed Christians to diplomatic posts in Europe.

It's a legitimate question.

oberdada · Aug 5, 2009

George Carty said:
If Turkey and other Muslim countries are not considered, are any non-Muslim countries possible alternatives to supply West Germany with Gastarbeiter?

that would be more of a post 1900 PoP, but anyways...
most "gastarbeiter" in the 50s came from Italy or Spain, Greece or Portugal.
Turkish people arrived later, and Germany could have managed its economy without muslim immigrants.
You'd probably have more Women working, more seasonal workers from Southern European Countries, and probably some old industries dying earlier.