No WW1: the Economic Factors.

Hashasheen

Banned
What would the economic scene look like, if there was no WW1? Russia and China were two of the fastest growing economies before the war. There might have not been such a depression post war when the returning soldiers came back. Perhaps no Prohibition, or an even stronger one? How would the European economy look like, without four years of war to break it down? France could definitly have benefited from the northern province's taxes and revenue.

Ideas? Thoughts?
 
Without the war, revolution in Russia may be contained, but certain crises aren't really avoidable.

There's still the problem of Russia's insane urban immigration and the lack of means to deal with it, for example, and China will likely collapse without some kind of external support like it did historically.
 

Deleted member 1487

Russia probably falls into revolution, as the population was getting sick of the autocratic nonsense. The Habsburg empire is my real question. They were actually advancing faster than Russia, but coming from a very low point. Within 15-20 years, I would be interested to see if they passed France. They have 17 million more people in 1914 and probably would have over 20+ by the 30's and a higher standard of living (in Austria/Czech areas at least). Russia is growing fast yet, but doesn't have the necessary middle class to get truly big until they reform politically and socially. So, the Germans probably hit a wall unless they can find new markets, which the French/British/Americans were eager to deny them. Austria-Hungary continues to get investments from Britain and Germany, expanding vastly, perhaps breaking the alliance with Germany eventually, but Italy is going to leave the triple alliance when its up for renewal.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Austria-Hungary has to get through a new crisis of the next renewal of the Ausgleich, and with Franz Ferdinand on the throne that will be a very difficult discussion indeed. The Hungarians completely distrusted him, and would make any coronation as expensive in terms of concessions as they could. There's the real potential for it to all head down into civil war

Ireland of course is blowing up in Summer 1914 without a war to distract things, though I never really understood just what on Earth was going to have happened

Albania is in crisis in 1914, and the Neutrality Patrols are going to be key. King William probably ends up propped up, but there's the real possibility that if Austria-Hungary gets too tied up in its internal affairs, then Italy might look to aggressively intervene

Spain probably won't throw its military reputation away in the Rif War since in part that was motivated by a feeling of having missed out on territorial gains that everyone else made in the Great War

IIRC the N Iraqi oilfields are coming on stream, and with the Berlin to Baghdad railway the economic future of that region looks very healthy indeed

Persia is Persia and who knows what is going to happen there ? But whatever does will drag in Britain, Germany and Russia (and Sweden IIRC)

Again, IIRC, German colonies were all in the process of getting more internal organisation, infrastructure and their own nifty little flags

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
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Although this depends on how the first world war was avoided, perhaps we could see a renewed effort on a new congress of Europe between the Great Powers to avoid a great conflageration.

In terms of economies, what would happen to the United States and Japan? I could see them possibly coming to blows in the Pacific if Britain does not renew her treaty with Japan in 1922 (I think).

If China does collapse, we could see a 'race for China' between powers in the Pacific (the United States, Japan, Britain, France and possibly Russia depending) for influence.

Economically speaking, the United States does not emerge as a new economic power that it did.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Although this depends on how the first world war was avoided, perhaps we could see a renewed effort on a new congress of Europe between the Great Powers to avoid a great conflageration.

In terms of economies, what would happen to the United States and Japan? I could see them possibly coming to blows in the Pacific if Britain does not renew her treaty with Japan in 1922 (I think).

If China does collapse, we could see a 'race for China' between powers in the Pacific (the United States, Japan, Britain, France and possibly Russia depending) for influence.

Economically speaking, the United States does not emerge as a new economic power that it did.

Good points

Japan and the USA only really have interests which conflict where China is concerned so that is where to look

If the Anglo-Japanese Alliance is NOT renewed, then there is the risk for Britain that Japan will ally instead with the Germans. I'm not sure that Japan is going to feel strong enough, or willing enough, to stand alone against the possibility of a combined Euro-American alliance against her at any time

The USA is emerging as an economic power, but it won't gain the sudden boost it got in OTL due to loans to Europe, and the taking over of German assets. But it will continue to grow, though not necessarilt in a pattern which would seem at all familiar to us - for example the huge boost to the automative industries from war production would be lost (and their would be no Lincoln marque)

In aeronautics, Sopwith doesn't go bust in the UK, but then again it does not of course get the huge boost that preceded this from war orders (their cancelling without payment is what bankrupted them)

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Russia probably falls into revolution, as the population was getting sick of the autocratic nonsense.

This is rather a tired cliche. They doggedly put up with autocratic nonsense between Lenin and Gorbachev, after all. Why must we assume that revolution in Russia is inevitable, even in the absense of a war to bring poverty and social breakdown, and a complete loss of confidence? I think Russia is wholly capable of staggering on, and of perhaps developing constitutionally, or perhaps in another direction. Having a Russo-Japanese war and no (succesful) WW1 is a bad place to bring up by old Tsarist Clerical Fascism chestnut which wants no 1905, really, but in the absence of the war I do think the Russian government has plenty of brute-force at its disposal if the worst comes to the worst.

The Habsburg empire is my real question. They were actually advancing faster than Russia, but coming from a very low point.

Uh, source? All my reading indicates that Russia was both the most backward abd most rapidly growing economy.

Within 15-20 years, I would be interested to see if they passed France. They have 17 million more people in 1914 and probably would have over 20+ by the 30's and a higher standard of living (in Austria/Czech areas at least).

Austria-Hungary will likely have a healthy economy. The Carpathian basin, in particular, is not going to be screwed up by Trianon.

Russia is growing fast yet, but doesn't have the necessary middle class to get truly big until they reform politically and socially.

What is "refomring politically and socially"? You seem to have chickens and eggs all in a muddle. Obviously an emerging industrial society has an emerging middle class, but it's not asthough you need a stable parliamentary government before it grows. After all, the real blooming of Russian industrial power came OTL under the iron fist of a paranoid psychopath. And Russia had reformed socially, in 1906, when they gave labour the mobility to go to the industrial cities.

Austria-Hungary continues to get investments from Britain and Germany, expanding vastly, perhaps breaking the alliance with Germany eventually,

As Grey Wolf has pointed out, with the '17 Ausgleich looming and large parts of the Hungarian civil service preparing notices to be presented to their new emperor, Austria-Hungary is in the short term hardly more stable than Russia.

But why on earth would Austria break its German alliance? Even with the wildest, most improbable twists and turns of international diplomacy, the alliance was for Austria and Germany also a domestic matter: the pan-Germans on both sides of course insisted that the brother-nations should co-operate.
 
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European trade patterns aren't destroyed.

If the Anglo-Japanese Alliance is NOT renewed, then there is the risk for Britain that Japan will ally instead with the Germans. I'm not sure that Japan is going to feel strong enough, or willing enough, to stand alone against the possibility of a combined Euro-American alliance against her at any time
Maybe Britain and Japan decide to renew the treaty especially if the Russians and Americans are active.

An important question is the arms race. What happens there.

I think we could see the first calls for an arms limitation treaty or more aptly a 'tonnage holiday' particulary between the British and Germans as they can't be churning out dreadnaughts for ever as other spending areas have to be considered such as emerging social reforms. Whether this is internationalised or restricted into a number of regionalised treaties between potential competitors, I can't say.
 
A thought I was having recently: there is plentiful evidence, despite what Wiking seems to think, that Russia was an awakening giant when WW1 broke out. We're quick to label this or that measure as "inadequate" because it didn't save the Tsar, but what did for him, as I said, was the war more than anything, and without it he will at least last much longer. Anyway, the fact was that things had changed: after 1885, the growth in urban workforce, railway milage, literacy and school attendance, all the signs, was tremendous. There was a decline in birth and death rates which indicated Russia was on the cusp of the demographic change, and Stolypin's reforms had dramatically enhanced agricultured efficiency.

In the absence of war, revolution, and civil war, this growth, it seems common sense, will continue. It won't be Stalin, but it will be starting from a much better base anyway.

So, the point: Russia was one of the two superpowers OTL. Part of the whole "superpower" dynamic was a product of the war and how it ended, of course, but will Russia, as a country the size of a continent like America, possesed of enormous reserved of resources and labour waiting to be fully exploited, rise out of and above the European balance by dint of its enormous size and power? This was precisely what the Germans were afraid of, at any rate... and it got them in the end. In short, will Russia become a superpower anyway?
 
This is rather a tired cliche. They doggedly put up with autocratic nonsense between Lenin and Gorbachev, after all. Why must we assume that revolution in Russia is inevitable, even in the absense of a war to bring poverty and social breakdown, and a complete loss of confidence?

Well, it's a cliché, granted, but Russia had a lot of problems that had to be adressed somehow. A booming economy would create a middle class, that would start to ask for more rights and a say over the empire management. Russia simply put had to bring her institutions up to the 20th century standard. Personally I think that, without a WW1, Russia would have evolved toward a slightly paternalistic/populistic regime, similar to the Peron's one.

Austria without a WW1 would probably retain her empire, maybe enhancig the multicultural aspect. Italy is going to be more stable and wealthy nation, WW1 really wrecked Italy, though the interaction between her and Austria would be quite difficult to predict.

I would be interested to hear people's thoughts on social / economic development in the Dominions without the Great War

I don't know too much about the dominions situation at the times, but IIRC the whole decolonisation process, while unavoidable, could be delayed. Besides if economic progress extends to the colonies (like India), the developing of a native middle class could change sensibly the pattern of said decolonisation. India for example could stay united and closer politically to UK.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
I would be interested to hear people's thoughts on social / economic development in the Dominions without the Great War

I am imagining that the war gave boost to Canadian industry that it wouldn't get in this

What happens instead is a rabbit that's not coming out of my hat

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Well, it's a cliché, granted, but Russia had a lot of problems that had to be adressed somehow. A booming economy would create a middle class, that would start to ask for more rights and a say over the empire management. Russia simply put had to bring her institutions up to the 20th century standard. Personally I think that, without a WW1, Russia would have evolved toward a slightly paternalistic/populistic regime, similar to the Peron's one.

Oh, certainly there were great problems. Certainly there would be (and had been) great social and political upheaval. But Wiking was making crude and silly generalisations and reversing his facts (middle-class participation in politics causes industrialisation and not vice-versa, according to him). I think a "Peronist" regime is certainly possible.

Austria without a WW1 would probably retain her empire, maybe enhancig the multicultural aspect. Italy is going to be more stable and wealthy nation, WW1 really wrecked Italy, though the interaction between her and Austria would be quite difficult to predict.

If Vienna was allowed to implement the ideas of some of the men who had FF's ear unimpeded, A-H would be in fit shape, but the whole problem is that the Hungarians will tolerate no assault on their integrity and privelage.

As for Italy... she'd be better, certainly, but really the war served to mask the enormous social and political pressures she was under already. Interesting times are ahead for her.

I don't know too much about the dominions situation at the times, but IIRC the whole decolonisation process, while unavoidable, could be delayed. Besides if economic progress extends to the colonies (like India), the developing of a native middle class could change sensibly the pattern of said decolonisation. India for example could stay united and closer politically to UK.

Well, I agree with the outline of what you say about decolonialisation simply because the European powers will have more money and clout, but I think economic development spreading much is rather optimistic. Imperialism is exploitive, parasitic. That native middle classes were not allowed to emerge excepting a few military strongmen (indeed, Britain quite deliberatly reversed social progress in some colonies) was precisely the problem.
 
Australia could be quite different. Having never introduced conscription, our contribution to the war was entirely volunteer, and so all the recruits had to meet the requirements - hale and healthy, of a certain minimum height, the usual. The effect of this was that a single battle could cull the youth of a entire community, taking the best and brightest. When the soldiers came back there was a sense of shock in the whole population, and quite a bit of the youthful energy driving the young nation on was lost. Every town and suburb in Australia has a memorial to those lost in WW1 - I think it's hard to overstate how big an impact the war had on the nation psychologically.

On the other hand, WW1 is also seen as being a defining moment for Australia. The Gallipoli landings had an immense impact, and the use of the ANZAC forged close bonds with New Zealand. There was a strong sense of Australia as an entirely seperate entity from Britain. Battles like Gallipoli, Passchendale, Hamel and Beersheba gave Australians a huge boost to their pride, and directly lead to the rather reverent way in which veterans and returned soldiers can to be treated.

IMO one huge impact would be the simple fact that thousands of young men wouldn't die, as with every other involved nation, and would instead go on to live full lives and contribute to society not just with themselves and their labours, but also with their children. I think Australia would, at least in the short run, be more driven by hope and opportunity, but at the same time be somewhat less confident on the world stage and more closely linked with Britain. I would also think that this would change the Labor Party somewhat - without the conscription issue and the war, I don't think Billy Hughes would have had the same impact.
 
I'm not entirely sure that the ANZAC experience was essential to the common bond between NZ/Australia - economically/socially and politically the two countries were already pretty close prior to that point due to the obvious reasons. It did add to the bond but then there is no good reason why the bond wouldn't remain/ or continue to grow with or without war
 
Economically speaking, the United States does not emerge as a new economic power that it did.

By new do you mean absolute economic superpower that it did? I think the US would have continued it's rapid growth and expansion just perhaps more focused on the Western Hemisphere. Perhaps gaining a much larger stake in Asia depending on the relationship with Japan and events going on in China. So perhaps not the explosion following the world wars but I think a steady growth continues to subtly encroach further and further. I think German markets and growth might be in jeopardy and I'm really curious how their (Germans) relationship to the UK would evolve. The UK has not bankrupted themselves, so has room to maneuver on the world stage, not being directly tied to an Alliance. It's always amazed me that the two states didn't see the power or logic in working together and get over the things interfering. As markets tighten and the continued military expenses begin to weigh (especially in Germany), perhaps Germany loses her ambition to challenge British naval dominance directly and instead see the wisdom military and fiancially of having the RN as a friend rather than opponent.

I think Austria-Hungary splits after Frans Joseph dies ... as I think he was the real link holding them together. I see them parting ways and in doing shifting things around. Germany will be forced to change her continental politics, again I think this (along with the above statements) should push Germany into a systematic reapproachment to England. Italy will do whatever cowardly things Italy will do. Italy will balk at staying with Germany unless an alliance with England is a sure thing and might look to France. Austria (small) has options too. She can continue a relationship with her German brothers and risk eventually being absorbed or make a move to Catholic France or become some sort of replica of Swiss neutrality. I lean toward a German union forming ... again increased or decreased by Germany's apparent isolation on the world stage.

I see most tend to think Russia is bound to be heading for revolution. I tend to agree that there is just too much social unrest with the classes and population for something not to happen. The real question for me is what type of government does Russia end up with in the event of a non-Lenin based revolution or reform. Depending on the timing, both France and Germany could lose their key ally around the same time. Poland could appear again if they throw off the Russian chains in Warsaw, for once by their own initiative too.

As for Japan ... they are an enigma. Without the world war, are the Brits more or less likely to renew the treaty and stick with the Japanese? Depending on that ... goes Japan as I don't see them ever striking on of the Western powers alone. Russia was and I suppose might be the exception to this. Japan either way looks to be in a better situation as they probably can consolidate holdings in China and fully integrate Formosa and Korea. Their economic power has a very high ceiling if they can avoid war. Their drive for empire might be curbed if they don't have Axis partners to distract attention from.

Someone mentioned newfound economic possibilities for the Turks. I hadn't thought of the Ottomans as simply just waiting to be broken up. If they can salvage themselves then German investment and some oil just might do the trick ... the longer the Turks manage to keep a hold on those oil fields the better off they will be. I'm sure Berlin won't be slow to see this either. Possibly more incentive for the Brits to get back in the business of 'protecting' the Ottomans. (Perhaps it's just difficult for me not to see links in everything to a Anglo-German relationship).
 
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Grey Wolf

Donor
Regarding Germany, internal politics could be the deciding factor, and of course national politics, global politics and economics are all tied together

The SPD had been steadily rising in parliamentary representation, and without a shock to the system look likely to become the majority party. The Kaiser does not HAVE to ask a leader from the majority to form a government, but unless he does he will find that the SPD can simply block the budget.

The Navy Laws are laws, and if the Kaiser can keep the SPD out, whilst a minority party Chancellor can find a way of working with them, then there would be less call for reform of the laws than if the SPD end up with the plum of the Chancellorship. Whilst a naval agreement with Britain looks sensible, don't always expect people to do what's sensible.

However, the strain on the national budget of constantly rising military expenditure has to end. It seems likely that amendments to the Navy Laws (rather than repeal) would be made to extend the gaps between replacements, whilst allowing for more ships to be in reserve for longer. Its even possible that at some period the large cruisers in the Laws will revert to a large cruiser type rather than be battlecruisers (with a fusion of fast battleship and heavy battlecruiser becoming the future battleships under the Laws)

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
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The Kaiser does not HAVE to ask a leader from the majority to form a government, but unless he does he will find that the SPD can simply block the budget.

Agreed. That ability to impact and somewhat decide the outcome of a budget is going to create and force some compromise that IMO can only lead to a much more parliamentary Germany. The SPD would reach a point in which rival parties combine into something to challenge them in the elected system and you have real policies being ironed out there. Could take time, and might even see some unrest but I think it's only a matter of time.

However, the strain on the national budget of constantly rising military expenditure has to end.

Again, I totally agree. A lot of variables with the factors of Russia and Austria-H remaining on the stage, markets, economic shifts, and changing military scenarios. They have the perfect solution/excuse for the public in forming some kind of partnership with Britain. A joint naval relationship can haev a positive effect on both parties. The UK can keep and essentially secure their leading position (by numbers) in the naval arena while negating by far the largest threat to just that role. Germany can claim naval pride in garnering a brother'ship' to the RN and has her markets and colonies protection assured. She can refocus the press/public on the advantages to the alliance of the Anglo-Saxon peoples. Both populations are going to need some time to reorient themselves but I think the pieces fit for a mutually good relationship.
 
With the United States I imagine its increasing rise as an economic power. However it will be noticablely weaker than in OTL due both to its european competitors being unravaged by war, and the lack of war loans which significantly raised the status of its financial industry.

One interesting factor with the United States is that without a Russian Revolution, there will probably be no strict immigration qoutas. Therefore the United States will likely get another decade or three ofmassive european immigration, mainly from Southern and Eastern Europe, before it slows down, or restrictions are put into to place.
 
By new do you mean absolute economic superpower that it did? I think the US would have continued it's rapid growth and expansion just perhaps more focused on the Western Hemisphere. Perhaps gaining a much larger stake in Asia depending on the relationship with Japan and events going on in China. So perhaps not the explosion following the world wars but I think a steady growth continues to subtly encroach further and further.

Agreed. As I said about Russia, superpowerdom was partly the war and its outcome but also partly just pverwhelming physical power.

I think German markets and growth might be in jeopardy and I'm really curious how their (Germans) relationship to the UK would evolve. The UK has not bankrupted themselves, so has room to maneuver on the world stage, not being directly tied to an Alliance. It's always amazed me that the two states didn't see the power or logic in working together and get over the things interfering. As markets tighten and the continued military expenses begin to weigh (especially in Germany), perhaps Germany loses her ambition to challenge British naval dominance directly and instead see the wisdom military and fiancially of having the RN as a friend rather than opponent.

While you'd have to ask a naval expert, I've always been under the impression that Britain had pretty much won, and could match Germany ship-to-ship from her better starting position for teh foreseeable future. Certainly this will compell Germany to give it up eventually. I can see an Anglo-German reconciliation coming about if Russia becomes too overbearing, since the whole point of WW1 was, as far as we were concerned, to block a German shot at continental hegemony (and the naval power this would then imply). If Germany can't do this because Russia is to strong (and the panicky Generalstab predicted that 1916 would be the turning point), and indeed if Russia looks like it could... I think the general weariness of Russian power by Britain and France in the 30s was only partly a matter of communism.

I think Austria-Hungary splits after Frans Joseph dies ... as I think he was the real link holding them together. I see them parting ways and in doing shifting things around.

It's possible. This raises some questions... is Hungary (with a 48% Hungarian population) sustainable? Does she crawl under a Greater German or a Russian umbrella, or fall to bits, or stagger on? Whither Galicia?

Germany will be forced to change her continental politics, again I think this (along with the above statements) should push Germany into a systematic reapproachment to England.

Well, it will probably put paid to Germany's ambitions in the Balkans for the tiem being (speaking of which, it's interesting to consider what Bulgaria, with its powerful army and highly influential irredentist terror organisation, will be up to in these no-war scenarios...), which will promote Russian power and thus perhaps push Britain and Germany together...

Italy will do whatever cowardly things Italy will do.

While I think Italy's great power status was delusional and its irredentism mostly unjustified, this is harsh. After all, one could say that Italy's jumping into the war OTL was excessively audacious.

Italy will balk at staying with Germany unless an alliance with England is a sure thing and might look to France. Austria (small) has options too. She can continue a relationship with her German brothers and risk eventually being absorbed or make a move to Catholic France or become some sort of replica of Swiss neutrality. I lean toward a German union forming ... again increased or decreased by Germany's apparent isolation on the world stage.

You don't seem to be giving much thought to domestic opinion in Austria (already mostly democratic in 1914, where Hungary was an oligarchy), which makes union with Germany practically unavoidable being eventually absorbed was hardly a "risk" as far as Austrians were concerned.

I see most tend to think Russia is bound to be heading for revolution. I tend to agree that there is just too much social unrest with the classes and population for something not to happen.

But what grounds do we have for assuming this? There was one revolution against Tsarist power when there had not been a war to destroy everybody's... oh, wait, there had, so there was a reolution when there had been a less severe war and it was basically a complete failure. Can the Tsar not simply use brute force and total control to stay in power? Alexander III and his secret police had already anticipated totalitarianism, and the Bolsheviks, who were precisely elected as Nicholas II was, managed to stay in power through enormous social change (not to mention the war).

The real question for me is what type of government does Russia end up with in the event of a non-Lenin based revolution or reform.

If there's a revolution, Mr. Ulyanov is most unlikely to lead it. His seizure of power was preventable as late as 1917.

Depending on the timing, both France and Germany could lose their key ally around the same time.

Why? It was war and civil war that destroyed Russia's economic base and military power, not the end of Tsarism. After all, the February Revolution was initially welcomed by France and Britain as bringing in a government that could competantly fight a war. Anyway, was Austria really Germany's "key ally" in the same way as teh Entente? Rather a tugboat to the battleship, really.

Poland could appear again if they throw off the Russian chains in Warsaw, for once by their own initiative too.

Unlikely. Poland reappered because the Germans occupied it and then had to leave. With a peaceful revolution, Poland may secure autonomy but it has not the resources to make itself independent, which nobody (save the Poles and maybe French public opinion) wants anyway.

As for Japan ... they are an enigma. Without the world war, are the Brits more or less likely to renew the treaty and stick with the Japanese? Depending on that ... goes Japan as I don't see them ever striking on of the Western powers alone. Russia was and I suppose might be the exception to this.

On the contrary, I predict that Russia's rising power will lead her to reassert herself in the Far East. She did OTL, after all. And won, too. At Khalkin-Gol, and in 1945, when Manchuria was liberated purely by Russian arms and only later handed over to Mao.

Japan either way looks to be in a better situation as they probably can consolidate holdings in China and fully integrate Formosa and Korea.

"Integrate"? That sounds rather unfortunate. Their attempts to Nihonise Korea were all miserable failures.

Their economic power has a very high ceiling if they can avoid war. Their drive for empire might be curbed if they don't have Axis partners to distract attention from.

Of course one has to consider domestic developments as well. Will they even be militant expanionists?

Someone mentioned newfound economic possibilities for the Turks. I hadn't thought of the Ottomans as simply just waiting to be broken up. If they can salvage themselves then German investment and some oil just might do the trick ... the longer the Turks manage to keep a hold on those oil fields the better off they will be. I'm sure Berlin won't be slow to see this either. Possibly more incentive for the Brits to get back in the business of 'protecting' the Ottomans. (Perhaps it's just difficult for me not to see links in everything to a Anglo-German relationship).

They're ina fine position... with teh exception of the 1913 Armenian Reform Package, that is, a Packaged Anatolia to be delivered to Russia. It basically put most of eastern Turkey under the "inspection" of some Norwegians while allocating positions in all branches of the state equally to Muslim and Christian despite Muslims being in majorities over 80% nearly everywhere. With Armenian political life dominated by a ruthless organisation of terrorists, this can only lead to tears. It was essentially a way for Russia to hold the Ottomans hostage, and they entered WW1 in order to dismantle it. With British and German backing, the Ottomans might slip out again with their customary talent for playing off the European powers, but that's assuming Britain and Germany pull together very, very quickly.

While we're in that part of the world, huge Greek butterflies. No National Schism, no flood of Anatolians... it will be practically unrecognisable.
 
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