The Violated Swiss

[MrP]

I should be indebted if members were to post in this thread exemplar TLs in which Germany (or France or A-H or even the Ottoman Empire or Japan, if you're a bit mad) violates the neutrality of Switzerland during the Great War. As cognoscenti are inevitably aware, Switzerland's neutrality was guaranteed by that high-ranking military chap whose name escapes me (as I'm drunk). But it would be a poor AH site were we to presume that a neutral Switzerland in WWI was inevitable. I thank you in advance.

[Dan Reilly The Great]

My WWI history is a bit sketchy, but whoever violates Swiss neutrality may very well lose the war, an invasion of switzerland is most definetly going to turn into a quagmire that will make vietnam look like a roadbump. The geographic realities of the country make any military advance slow and grueling at the least.

[BrotherToAll]

I've actually toyed around with the very same idea, my idea was that the Germans desperate to deal the final blow to France moves troops as quickly as it can through Swiss territory except they hit a snag and end up being bogged down in the Swiss Alps which turns into another meat grinder in which German troops are fed leading to a more devistating German defeat after WWI.

[Fenwick]

May be more interesting then just "Germans bad, Swiss fight them!" I will look for the books again but from my WWI research the German speaking majority favored the Central Powers, while French and, Italian speakers sided with the Entente Powers which would cause conflict in 1918- minor fights called riots, mixed in, with government factions- but keep the country out of the war.

During the war Switzerland was blockaded by the Allies and therefore suffered some difficulties. However, because Switzerland was centrally located, neutral, and generally undamaged, the war allowed the growth of the Swiss banking industry. So if timed correctly the Germans could catch a minor wave of support for moving in. Of course this support is ruined if the Germans use their standard occupation methods.

[rast]

The Germans considered the Swiss as a kind of ally, a reliable (in contrast to Belgium) neutral county that would defend itself (and thus Germany) from Entente intrusion. ("Our ally in the south" - Wilhelm II.)
Nobody in Germany ever contemplated invading Switzerland.

[Valdemar II]

I think a French invasion would be most interesting, a German invasion would make little difference, the German would conquer the north leave the thinly populated south alone, mostly because a invasion both way was impossible, but the Germans would be stopped in Franche-Comte, and that would be it. While a French invasion would be quite interesting in the Versailles Treaty, even through it would succed in little beside conquer a little of the west, and result in a few more dead allied soldiers.

[Lonewolf]

My father worked in Switzerland in the 1950 and he was told by swiss citizens that at night some units entered Switzerland as shortcut to travel to Italy.
I found no traces about it in books but maybe someone else knows more.

[Manfr]

There were actual plans, in the Swiss army, for invading the italian province of Sondrio in alliance with AH ...

[Jord839]

Zod and Onkel Willie's "Twin Eagles and the Lion" TL has France getting desperate to save its ally Austria-Hugary(different alliances because the POD is farther back The Triple Alliance is Germay, Italy, and Russia) leading to its invasion of switzerland and the conflict becomes very bloody and bitter pretty quickly. The end result is Switzerland's taste for neutrality is smashed and it more or less becomes a loyal ally of the Triple Alliance(though they do still have moments of mistrust of them).

That said, the TL's Triple Alliance does get incredibly wanked with the treaty that ends WWI(though it only manages a horribly bloody stalemate in WWII against the revived Entente, and former allies America and Japan), so it might not be to your taste.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by Manfr

There were actual plans, in the Swiss army, for invading the italian province of Sondrio in alliance with AH ...

This would at least least open up another front against the Italians. Given that British troops (including my grandfather) fought in Italy this is going to stretch the Entente forces still further.

If it was timed with the Asiago offensive it could lead to a decisive Italian defeat and A-H armies on the north Italian plain. Whilst the Italian government may not surrender at this point, if the A-H Swiss armies can keep up the momentum it will draw off British troops from other fronts, to the advantage of the Germans and Turks.

[Grey Wolf]

Its worth looking at a treaty whose name escapes me (memory seems to be er....thingamajig today !). It has to do with when France got Nice and Haute Savoie but IIRC (and I hardly recall at all) it also built on some er other treaty. Oh bollocks ! Something to do with er...defences and cassus belli....Holy Crap my brain is Swiss cheese !

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[Manfr]

Originally Posted by Grey Wolf

Its worth looking at a treaty whose name escapes me (memory seems to be er....thingamajig today !). It has to do with when France got Nice and Haute Savoie but IIRC (and I hardly recall at all) it also built on some er other treaty. Oh bollocks ! Something to do with er...defences and cassus belli....Holy Crap my brain is Swiss cheese !

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

It was a treaty about neutralization of those areas, if memory serves me well, I should check my International Law textbook. It was "passed" to France by Savoy-Piedmont, as it was a localised treaty which basically granted free passage and military neutralization on areas of the Swiss-Savoy border.

[Manfr]

Originally Posted by Michael B

This would at least least open up another front against the Italians. Given that British troops (including my grandfather) fought in Italy this is going to stretch the Entente forces still further.

If it was timed with the Asiago offensive it could lead to a decisive Italian defeat and A-H armies on the north Italian plain. Whilst the Italian government may not surrender at this point, if the A-H Swiss armies can keep up the momentum it will draw off British troops from other fronts, to the advantage of the Germans and Turks.

Something I was always interested in : had AH crushed us Italians in WWI, what would we lose in a peace treaty ?

Obviously, if this includes Switzerland we would be forced to give up Sondrio but as for Austria ? Belluno and slight changes on the Friuli border ? Lybia and Dodecanesus to the Ottomans ? Albania and Montenegro in the Austrian sphere ?

[Tyg]

Originally Posted by Manfr

Something I was always interested in : had AH crushed us Italians in WWI, what would we lose in a peace treaty ?
...
Lybia and Dodecanesus to the Ottomans ? Albania and Montenegro in the Austrian sphere ?

While the war is ongoing with France and the UK, those would be pretty empty gains for the Central Powers, given that the Entente would (maybe not-so) simply occupy them.

Of more immediate value might be the use of Italian road, rail, and basing infrastructure in order to open a second front with France across the Italian frontier. If this occurs, I'm not so sure the Entente would treat Italy as a truly neutral power, to say nothing of what most Italians might think of such an agreement.

That being said, Switzerland would be directly between the northern and southern French fronts, with significant potential value in allowing the transit of German/Austrian troops, supplies, or various material. Post-Bismark Imperial Germany historically displayed diplomacy so ham-handed it would shame pigs everywhere, so there's lots of potential for negotiations with the Swiss to break down.

If the Central Powers and Switzerland are dropping into a dangerously hostile level of relations in the desperate last phases of the war, making one last great gamble might seem worthwhile to Berlin...

[Nymain1]

What would the Swiss likely get if it was invaded by the Germans in a last ditch effort to penetrate the french?

Reperations?
Land? if so where?

[Manfr]

Originally Posted by Nymain1

What would the Swiss likely get if it was invaded by the Germans in a last ditch effort to penetrate the french?

Reperations?
Land? if so where?

Liechtenstein and pieces of Baden ?

[Manfr]

Originally Posted by Tyg

While the war is ongoing with France and the UK, those would be pretty empty gains for the Central Powers, given that the Entente would (maybe not-so) simply occupy them.

Of more immediate value might be the use of Italian road, rail, and basing infrastructure in order to open a second front with France across the Italian frontier. If this occurs, I'm not so sure the Entente would treat Italy as a truly neutral power, to say nothing of what most Italians might think of such an agreement.

That being said, Switzerland would be directly between the northern and southern French fronts, with significant potential value in allowing the transit of German/Austrian troops, supplies, or various material. Post-Bismark Imperial Germany historically displayed diplomacy so ham-handed it would shame pigs everywhere, so there's lots of potential for negotiations with the Swiss to break down.

If the Central Powers and Switzerland are dropping into a dangerously hostile level of relations in the desperate last phases of the war, making one last great gamble might seem worthwhile to Berlin...

Well, according to some historians our troops' retreat after Caporetto started as a soldiers' uprising similar to Russia: if the government acts histerically, and supports Cadorna's twisted ideas of decimating rebel troops, we might well see a military revolt, which could make great room for a general AH advance in the Padan Plane.
At this point we would probably have a collapse of the government, and a situation similar to Germany or Russia after the conflict: maybe Socialists take over and strike a harsh peace deal, only to fight a civil war with a military regime led by D'Annunzio, while Germans and Austrians more or less occupy the North ...

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by Manfr

Well, according to some historians our troops' retreat after Caporetto started as a soldiers' uprising similar to Russia: if the government acts histerically, and supports Cadorna's twisted ideas of decimating rebel troops, we might well see a military revolt, which could make great room for a general AH advance in the Padan Plane.
At this point we would probably have a collapse of the government, and a situation similar to Germany or Russia after the conflict: maybe Socialists take over and strike a harsh peace deal, only to fight a civil war with a military regime led by D'Annunzio, while Germans and Austrians more or less occupy the North ...

It is unlikely that the Central Powers would wish to annex the north. Certainly they would look at dividing Italy into two countries if only to punish it for having joined the Entente.

That would after the war and only if the Central Powers won. In the meantime, the Entente would have to set a new front line on the French-Italian border and that will take more troops than the British had already sent to Italy. Given that the Western Front can not be thinned out the main source would be British troops in the Middle East. (It is immaterial whether they get sent there or sent to replace French troops sent south).

That would be to the benefit of both the Turks who would now not have to fend off British attacks from Egypt and the Germans who would not have to reinforce them.The Germans would have the option of sending their men to either the Eastern, Western or Southern Fronts. The Turks would send theirs against the Russians.

With their gains made I doubt that the Swiss would put much more than a token effort into the war. They have achieved their objective and as long as their allies win, they will be fine. Still but being a belligerent they would tie up more French troops on an extended Western Front.

Assuming that Russia collapses as per OTL, with a thinner Western Front the Germans could very well make greater gains in their 1918 offensive. I am not sure though that they make enough to force France out of the war before the USA behemoth rolls in.