AH Challenge: Earlier German Identity

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by Susano

Actually that would be kinda difficult IMO. Because of the common lingual conflicts, I would say the Germans were pretty much "the Other" for the Czech national identity to form against. One would have to find a way to get rid of those conflicts very early...

Hmm. While certainly this was a rooted thing with the Hussites and stuff, then I've always been of the opinion that national amity is a lot less deep-rooted than is often thought. After all, in Scotland the English were our "other" and yet even the nats still acknowledge that we're all to one extent or aother "British in sentiment".

Originally Posted by Susano

And really, Czech language is cool at least in one regard: It cant be that the British Islands have the only language without vowels

"Srpski-Hrvatski" still wins out, I think. Once you learn Cyrillic, Russian is a lot easier to pronounce from text than Czech or Polish!

Originally Posted by Susano

As for Transylvania, independance, of course! This would then probably cause physical pain for Eurofed, but omelettes and eggs

Hurrah for balkanised eggs!

Unfortunately, my PoD is in 1914 and Transylvania is in dispute as of early 1917 and the end of the Great War... neither side is very keen on that idea.

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by zeitenschmiede

And - of course - quotes from a single man speak for an entire people...

The founder of the Lutheran face, appealing to the pprinces of people and Germany as part of a campaign to persuade and cajole him?

Moreover, it's not like he's the only one.

[Extrasolar Angel]

And why the Bohemian intellectual elites of an Empire that has been united for a half millennium under Germanic-Italian cultural hegemony shall develop an irresistible nationalistic fascination for quaint peasant dialects

And why did Ukrainians after over 800 years of being ruled by Russians, Lithuanians, Poles, Tatars still harboured their national identity and continued to develop it ?
Hear an Red Army anthem and then a German Army anthem. Read a love letter in Russian language and then in German. Slavic languages seem more melodic and emotional, better suited for emotional poetry and expression of feelings then German language which seems biased towards philosophy and analytical writing. That is not that German can't be used in poetry, but it feels different. Those "quient peasent dialects" that produced Pushkin, Mickiewicz, Gogol also by their structure and rules...
I think a certain spiritual attraction would be something to hang on at first...

[wiking]

Originally Posted by Extrasolar Angel

And why did Ukrainians after over 800 years of being ruled by Russians, Lithuanians, Poles, Tatars still harboured their national identity and continued to develop it ?
Hear an Red Army anthem and then a German Army anthem. Read a love letter in Russian language and then in German. Slavic languages seem more melodic and emotional, better suited for emotional poetry and expression of feelings then German language which seems biased towards philosophy and analytical writing. That is not that German can't be used in poetry, but it feels different. Those "quient peasent dialects" that produced Pushkin, Mickiewicz, Gogol also by their structure and rules...
I think a certain spiritual attraction would be something to hang on at first...

Have you read Schiller or Goethe's poetry?

[Extrasolar Angel]

Have you read Schiller or Goethe's poetry?

I know and read Schiller and Goethe.

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by Extrasolar Angel

And why did Ukrainians after over 800 years of being ruled by Russians, Lithuanians, Poles, Tatars still harboured their national identity and continued to develop it ?
Hear an Red Army anthem and then a German Army anthem. Read a love letter in Russian language and then in German. Slavic languages seem more melodic and emotional, better suited for emotional poetry and expression of feelings then German language which seems biased towards philosophy and analytical writing. That is not that German can't be used in poetry, but it feels different. Those "quient peasent dialects" that produced Pushkin, Mickiewicz, Gogol also by their structure and rules...
I think a certain spiritual attraction would be something to hang on at first...

I like German and Russian and I think they can both be very "melodic and emotional", whatever that actually means. I myself objected to his terminology, but I think all languages, while they're differant and unique, give a differant and unique aspect to whatever is written in them and aren't just "better at one thing". And anyway none of those people you named was actually Czech.

[Valdemar II]

According to a old comment from Gladi, the primary reason the Czechs don't speak German, is because of the 30 Years War. It make some sense when you remember that many of German speakers was Catholics, and while the Czechs was Protestants at the time, so the the war energised the Czechs early Nationalism, and likely resulted in some ethnic cleansing of Catholics in Protestant areas, and when the Catholics was German speaking the result is logical (Gladi correct me if I'm wrong).
Likely without the 30 Years War we would have seen Czech end up as Sorbish in Lusatia in the 2nd Empire, a dialect spoken by a small majority in Moravia, and a large minority in Bohemia, but mostly rural and with little influence, and the users would user German in most situation outside home and the church (two Czech speakers would use German with each others when they traded*)

*You see the same phenomen in majority Welsh areas, where English is used in business, even between fluent Welsh speakers.

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

According to a old comment from Gladi, the primary reason the Czechs don't speak German, is because of the 30 Years War. It make some sense when you remember that many of German speakers was Catholics, and while the Czechs was Protestants at the time, so the the war energised the Czechs early Nationalism, and likely resulted in some ethnic cleansing of Catholics in Protestant areas, and when the Catholics was German speaking the result is logical (Gladi correct me if I'm wrong).
Likely without the 30 Years War we would have seen Czech end up as Sorbish in Lusatia in the 2nd Empire, a dialect spoken by a small majority in Moravia, and a large minority in Bohemia, but mostly rural and with little influence, and the users would user German in most situation outside home and the church (two Czech speakers would use German with each others when they traded*)

*You see the same phenomen in majority Welsh areas, where English is used in business, even between fluent Welsh speakers.

I'm hardly a TYW expert but I do know that it made Czechia a Catholic country, which rather jars with what you're saying. Also, as I've said already, by 1800 Germans was the language of pretty much all commercial and government business.

[Eurofed]

Originally Posted by I Blame Communism

I myself objected to his terminology, but I think all languages.

Just to clarify my stance, I assume that with an early HRE unification, the vast majority of tribal/regional dialects within it shall not have the opportunity of developing a full-fledged vernacular literature, with the exception of the region where the Imperial court lies, and a handful of the most economically dynamic ones. The others shall remain peasant dialects and slowly die out, be them German, Slavs, or Italian. So Czech shall be a "quaint peasant dialect" just like say Thuringian, Frisian, or Umbrian.

[Hapsburg]

Originally Posted by Farfromhome

I gotta say that no matter how prevalent and secure the czech culture of today is, if there was never a kingdom of Bohemia would a czech consider himself to be regionally a Czech, and nationally a german.

Possibly. It happened with the Swabians, who were viewed by most Germans to be as different as the Czechs.
Keep Bohemia a Duchy, and make German the lingua franca for trade and government. That should do, at least for a while.

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by I Blame Communism

I'm hardly a TYW expert but I do know that it made Czechia a Catholic country, which rather jars with what you're saying. Also, as I've said already, by 1800 Germans was the language of pretty much all commercial and government business.

No it opened Czechia to Catholisation, but when the TYW ended, there was few of the old Catholics left.

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by Hapsburg

Possibly. It happened with the Swabians, who were viewed by most Germans to be as different as the Czechs.
Keep Bohemia a Duchy, and make German the lingua franca for trade and government. That should do, at least for a while.

Well, whatever the other Germans thought (and I'mm dubioud about this), they clearly weren't, since even if you stretch it and give them a "language", it's a Germanic one and therefore much, much eaier to assimilate.

And as I keep saying, German did become the lingua-franca for trade and government. This was changed by the influx into the cities resulting from industrialisation coinciding with an intellectual revival of the Czech culture among the growing middle classes.

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

No it opened Czechia to Catholisation, but when the TYW ended, there was few of the old Catholics left.

Hmm. As I say, the TYW is a big blind spot. You may well be right.

[Susano]

Wait what? Swabians were viewed as as different as Czechs? What? Swabia was one of the "founding duchies" of the German Kingdom, and the Swabian Reichskreis one of the most supportive of the HRE. Really, thats nonsense.

And the raise of the Bohemian Duchy to Kingdom status didnt really mean that much. It did not even put Bohemia outside the German Kingdom - it was a subkingdom, basically just a Duchy with extrafancyness. And it must be note dthat even so, the feeling of Czechs not being Germans was mutual. While the King of Bohemia eventually became a Prince-Elector, he at first was denied this privilege because (direct quote) "he is no German". (In the 13th century, so more evidence for pre-19th century German identity). Of course such thing scan change over time...

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by Susano

Wait what? Swabians were viewed as as different as Czechs? What? Swabia was one of the "founding duchies" of the German Kingdom, and the Swabian Reichskreis one of the most supportive of the HRE. Really, thats nonsense.

And the raise of the Bohemian Duchy to Kingdom status didnt really mean that much. It did not even put Bohemia outside the German Kingdom - it was a subkingdom, basically just a Duchy with extrafancyness. And it must be note dthat even so, the feeling of Czechs not being Germans was mutual. While the King of Bohemia eventually became a Prince-Elector, he at first was denied this privilege because (direct quote) "he is no German". (In the 13th century, so more evidence for pre-19th century German identity). Of course such thing scan change over time...

Quite ironic with both Brandenburg being quite Slavic at the same time, just show that pre-modern nationalism focused on slightly different elements.

[Hapsburg]

Well, what I've read is that the Germans largely viewed the Swabians as not-quite-German, due to their linguistic and cultural differences from the German mainstream. Maybe not as much as the Czechs and Sorbs, but it was something.

[Carinthium]

Originally Posted by Susano

Wait what? Swabians were viewed as as different as Czechs? What? Swabia was one of the "founding duchies" of the German Kingdom, and the Swabian Reichskreis one of the most supportive of the HRE. Really, thats nonsense.

And the raise of the Bohemian Duchy to Kingdom status didnt really mean that much. It did not even put Bohemia outside the German Kingdom - it was a subkingdom, basically just a Duchy with extrafancyness. And it must be note dthat even so, the feeling of Czechs not being Germans was mutual. While the King of Bohemia eventually became a Prince-Elector, he at first was denied this privilege because (direct quote) "he is no German". (In the 13th century, so more evidence for pre-19th century German identity). Of course such thing scan change over time...

As I understand it, there did not use to be the implicit assumption that because there were different nationalities there was somehow a 'need' for different countries. Also, the views of a society's 'elites' can differ from their 'people'.