AH Challenge: Earlier German Identity

Rekjavik · Jul 20, 2009

How could a unified 'German' identity form earlier? I understand that this is tricky, but it wouldn't be a challenge if it wasn't. Is there a way for a German identity/nationalism to form without help from Napoleon? For this challenge the only restriction is that he PoD cannot be before the coronation of Otto I in 962.

This doesn't necessarily need to lead to a unified German state, although it probably would, but the only real requirement for this challenge is that a significant proportion of the German people see themselves as Germans rather than members of their respective countries.

One final note, TTL 'German' doesn't necessary have to include just OTL 'Germans'. Other Germanic peoples, such as the Danes or Dutch, can also consider themselves Germans if you can find a way to make them.

I Blame Communism · Jul 20, 2009

Rekjavik said:
How could a unified 'German' identity form earlier? I understand that this is tricky, but it wouldn't be a challenge if it wasn't. Is there a way for a German identity/nationalism to form without help from Napoleon? For this challenge the only restriction is that he PoD cannot be before the coronation of Otto I in 962.

This doesn't necessarily need to lead to a unified German state, although it probably would, but the only real requirement for this challenge is that a significant proportion of the German people see themselves as Germans rather than members of their respective countries.

One final note, TTL 'German' doesn't necessary have to include just OTL 'Germans'. Other Germanic peoples, such as the Danes or Dutch, can also consider themselves Germans if you can find a way to make them.

Hrrm. Are you suggesting that German identity began in 1813? That's the vibe I get from the Napoleon remark. Ever heard of Ottokar II?

Rekjavik · Jul 20, 2009

I Blame Communism said:
Hrrm. Are you suggesting that German identity began in 1813? That's the vibe I get from the Napoleon remark. Ever heard of Ottokar II?

I'm not suggesting that there was no German identity before 1813, but that it was never a serious force until after the Napoleonic Wars. The before Napoleonic Wars the vast majority of people who lived in what became Germany percieved themselves to be Bavarian, Saxon, Prussian etc. The challenge is to make the majority see themselves as German.

I Blame Communism · Jul 20, 2009

Rekjavik said:
I'm not suggesting that there was no German identity before 1813, but that it was never a serious force until after the Napoleonic Wars. The before Napoleonic Wars the vast majority of people who lived in what became Germany percieved themselves to be Bavarian, Saxon, Prussian etc. The challenge is to make the majority see themselves as German.

They all did. They might have perceived their local interests, or their religious or dynastic or class ones, as being a more immediate concern, but German identity existed very early and was felt by pretty much all Germans.

Rekjavik · Jul 20, 2009

I Blame Communism said:
They all did. They might have perceived their local interests, or their religious or dynastic or class ones, as being a more immediate concern, but German identity existed very early and was felt by pretty much all Germans.

You make a good point, but I meant a German identity becoming dominant, not the more passive form that is was before the Napoleonic Wars. More akin to the 1848 style nationalism occurring earlier.

I Blame Communism · Jul 20, 2009

Rekjavik said:
You make a good point, but I meant a German identity becoming dominant, not the more passive form that is was before the Napoleonic Wars. More akin to the 1848 style nationalism occurring earlier.

Ah, I see. Well, I'd imagine an easy way to make pan-German identity dominant would be a chicken-and-egg method. A united Germany. After all, there were periods when the Holy Roman Empire was a more effective state that France. Various circumstances having to do with the reformation and whatknot preveneted Germany from centralising when it was the name of the game and then we had the disaster of the 30 Years War. If we were to allow Germany to become centralised by the 15-16 hundreds then one would imagine the facts on the ground would strengthen the national consciousness.

Faeelin · Jul 20, 2009

I Blame Communism said:
Ah, I see. Well, I'd imagine an easy way to make pan-German identity dominant would be a chicken-and-egg method. A united Germany. After all, there were periods when the Holy Roman Empire was a more effective state that France. Various circumstances having to do with the reformation and whatknot preveneted Germany from centralising when it was the name of the game and then we had the disaster of the 30 Years War. If we were to allow Germany to become centralised by the 15-16 hundreds then one would imagine the facts on the ground would strengthen the national consciousness.

A lot of early reformation has a strong German vibe to it, actually; And you had the efforts to centralize the Empire. I certainly think the Habsburgs, had they not acquired Spain (and you fiddle with the Reformation), would hae ended up moving towards the Empire of the German nation.

ImperialVienna · Jul 20, 2009

Hmm a Habsburg unified Germany in the 1500's eh...

*cough* Go read my TL All Hail Germania (sure I haven't actually unified Germany yet technically, but she is well on her way) *cough*

Eurofed · Jul 20, 2009

One could have the Hohenstaufen centralization efforts be successful, although that would build a united German-Italian imperial state (with Dutch and Czechs eventually assimilated by the Germans). Dunno if that fulfills the OP requirements, although it would be a really kickass Reich.

Philip · Jul 20, 2009

Eurofed said:
One could have the Hohenstaufen centralization efforts be successful, although that would build a united German-Italian imperial state (with Dutch and Czechs eventually assimilated by the Germans).

If you go with this POD, are there really any Dutch to speak of?

I Blame Communism · Jul 20, 2009

Philip said:
If you go with this POD, are there really any Dutch to speak of?

Besides which, I'm budious about the Czechs being "assimilated" any more than OTL. You have to remmeber that in 1800, German was the language of pretty much all government and business in the Czech lands. It was the combination of the national revival with the flood of Czehitophone people arriving in the towns from the countryside that changed this. The "Sudetenland" was simply those areas where the people on the countryside had undergone a gradual, natural Germanisation. You can probably have a situation where the industrial revolution in Bohemia coincides with repression of the national revival, but I rather feel that this will be an "Ems Ukaz" and do more harm than good. But why would an earlier German state do anything to interest the rulers in the language of the villages?

In general I'm rather annoyed at this rather widespread attitude of "Oh, the Czechs, they're that unsightly bite out of the Greater German Reich, aren't they?"

Eurofed · Jul 20, 2009

Philip said:
If you go with this POD, are there really any Dutch to speak of?

Actually, no, as there would not be any Swiss.

Susano · Jul 20, 2009

I Blame Communism said:
In general I'm rather annoyed at this rather widespread attitude of "Oh, the Czechs, they're that unsightly bite out of the Greater German Reich, aren't they?"

Heh, well, on an author metalevel they are. One just has to realise its err, rather difficult to get that changed. The Czechs had an, especially lingual, identity rather early one. I think one would rather see the Slovenes assimilated than the Czechs, and even that would be a stretch.

As for HRE centralisation... well if one wants to go really far back, the Erbreichsplan. Otherwise, yes, the reformation might be good. A victorious Schmalkaldic League maybe, as I always mention

Eurofed · Jul 20, 2009

I Blame Communism said:
Besides which, I'm budious about the Czechs being "assimilated" any more than OTL. You have to remmeber that in 1800, German was the language of pretty much all government and business in the Czech lands. It was the combination of the national revival with the flood of Czehitophone people arriving in the towns from the countryside that changed this. The "Sudetenland" was simply those areas where the people on the countryside had undergone a gradual, natural Germanisation. You can probably have a situation where the industrial revolution in Bohemia coincides with repression of the national revival, but I rather feel that this will be an "Ems Ukaz" and do more harm than good. But why would an earlier German state do anything to interest the rulers in the language of the villages?

Of course, this PoV woefully ignores the huge effects on cultural unity that an extra half millennium extra of full political unity of the HRE would have on such national revival. Simply, it is not ever going to happen, by this point the ruling and urban middle classes in Bohemia are as Germanized as the ones in Dresden, and as soon as Industrialization starts, the lower classes shall be enrolled in mass in German-speaking factories and school, and the rural Slav dialect shall be wiped out.

In general I'm rather annoyed at this rather widespread attitude of "Oh, the Czechs, they're that unsightly bite out of the Greater German Reich, aren't they?"

Well, historically, the Czechs are the one part of the Western Slav peoples that settled west of the Oder and missed Germanization, so the attitude has merit.

Eurofed · Jul 20, 2009

Susano said:
Heh, well, on an author metalevel they are. One just has to realise its err, rather difficult to get that changed. The Czechs had an, especially lingual, identity rather early one. I think one would rather see the Slovenes assimilated than the Czechs, and even that would be a stretch.

And why the Czech or the Slovene peasant languages should weather half a millennium of HRE unity any better than the Sorb dialects ???

As for HRE centralisation... well if one wants to go really far back, the Erbreichsplan.

Very true. Let Barbarossa and his son be somewhat more successful and longeve, and you have the HRE well on the way to France-like centralization. Which, by the way, could push France to unify with England in the Angevine Empire, and you would have two kickass Empires contending for European and colonial global supremacy up to the modern age.

I Blame Communism · Jul 20, 2009

Eurofed said:
Of course, this PoV woefully ignores the huge effects on cultural unity that an extra half millennium extra of full political unity of the HRE would have on such national revival.

Plenty of nations have proved remarkably enduring. You have to remember that for many of the centuries to which you refer to the language of people in the villages is of absolutely no concern to their rulers. In a remarkably conveniant example, the Slovaks were happily hewing wood or whatever it is meideval Slovaks do under even longer Magyar rule.

Eurofed said:
Simply, it is not ever going to happen, by this point the ruling and urban middle classes in Bohemia are as Germanized as the ones in Dresden,

They were extremely Germanised OTL. The thing about industrial revolutions is that they dramatically expand and change the educated and ruling classes.

Eurofed said:
and as soon as Industrialization starts, the lower classes shall be enrolled in mass in German-speaking factories and school, and the rural Slav dialect shall be wiped out.

Why? The whole point was the the factories and schools were swamped with Slavs. Look at the language figures for Prague: at the start of the century it was a German city. And you haven't really provided any convincing argument why the intellectual side won't happen. As Susano says, the Czechs nation has strong and deep roots.

Eurofed said:
Well, historically, the Czechs are the one part of the Western Slav peoples that settled west of the Oder and missed Germanization, so the attitude has merit.

...God, that's offensive. I have nothing against Germanisation, but to say it's some kind of force of nature and that exceptions to it resulting in fascinating and civilised peoples are "unsightly" is just... urgh...

Am I the only person here who actually likes and admires every people of central Europe for their own merits?

Eurofed · Jul 20, 2009

And just to annoy the sensibilities of Slavophiles further, I shall go and state that a Hohenstaufen unification almost surely means that the OTL boundaries of Germanization in the East pushed rather further: at the very least Western Poland, most of Slovakia, and Western Hungary would be assimilated, bringing the linguistic boundary on the Warta and the Danube, if not further.

I Blame Communism · Jul 20, 2009

Eurofed said:
And why the Czech or the Slovene peasant languages should weather half a millennium of HRE unity any better than the Sorb dialects ???

And why would the Slovak peasent language weather more than half a millenium of Hungarian unity (yes, I know Mohacs... the Slvaks still spend that period under the control of a central and effective government that was Magyar or later German) any better than some sort of false comparison?

I find it quite amazing that you can make these claims about the Czechs when teyir closest relatives disprove your arguments.

Susano · Jul 20, 2009

Eurofed said:
And why the Czech or the Slovene peasant languages should weather half a millennium of HRE unity any better than the Sorb dialects ???

Because there never were German settlers in Slovania, while in Czechia the Czechs did have an urban elite. The numerous language disputes at the University of Prague are testament to that.

I Blame Communism said:
Am I the only person here who actually likes and admires every people of central Europe for their own merits?

That... actually, now that you say it there might be a point to that. Youre awesome like that

(Heh, anybody who manages to balance Germanophilia and Polophilia off has some serious talent

)

Faeelin · Jul 20, 2009

Susano said:
As for HRE centralisation... well if one wants to go really far back, the Erbreichsplan. Otherwise, yes, the reformation might be good. A victorious Schmalkaldic League maybe, as I always mention

Eh, I disagree about the league. Why would a group of princes opposed to the Emperor proceed to centralize the state?

I Blame Communism said:
Besides which, I'm budious about the Czechs being "assimilated" any more than OTL.

Counter argument: The experience of th French state suggests that the destruction of provincial cultures, many of which were at least as advanced as the Czechs, is possible. Consider Languedoc, for instance. And teh Austrian Empire never really pursued the systematic acculturation that a German Empire would. But it's a fair point that the Czechs had their own kingdom and resisted assimilation OTL.