Aztec Empire timeline (rough draft)

For a while now I`ve been thinking of an AH in which the Aztec Empire never fell, and I`ve been working on this timeline for a little while. This is a rough first draft, so I expect some things to be a little improbable, but I`m looking for critisms. Here goes:

THE FIRST ONE HUNDRED YEARS:

1519- Aztec Emperor Montezuma`s army defeats the Spanish conquistador Cortes.

1520- The Aztecs launch a massive campaign against rival tribes (allies of Cortes) in the area. Stolen Spanish horses are used.

1521- Aztec explorers discover an Incan outpost in the mountains of South America. That same year, diplomats from Tenochtitlan are sent to Cuzco, the Incan captial, to meet with the Incan Emperor Atahualpa.

1522- The Aztecs and the Incas form a free trade agreement and a pact of non-aggression. The Aztec/Inca alliance begins.

1531 - A Chinese ship lands on the western shore of the Aztec Empire. China, having heard stories of a newfound empire to the east, comes out of it`s isolationist state and sets sail for the New World, hoping to find an ally in the Aztecs. The Aztecs and Chinese begin trading.

1532 - Chinese made firearms first arrive in the Aztec Empire.

1533-1551- Period of military buildup by the Aztecs. In exchange for pure gold, the Aztecs buy rifle and ship technologies from the Chinese. The Aztecs also begin to fortify their eastern coasts, to prevent a second invasion attempt by the Spanish. The Aztec`s first warship, the Quetzlcoatl, is launched during this period.

1551-1560- Period of exploration. Aztec explorers sail as far as Florida, which they call Ciahuac. Explorers launching from Atenco (Baja California) sail as far as Alaska.

1559- An Aztec diplomat is sent to China to meet with the Chinese Emperor. He is the first Aztec to ever leave the Americas.

1561- The Spanish in Cuba begin to fortify the island.

1563- The Aztec Navy begins shelling Spanish Cuba. In four weeks, the Aztecs push the Europeans out of the islands, however, the Aztecs do not stay there themselves.

1564-1571- The Aztecs begin colonies on the Atlantic coast, trading with the natives, such as the Creeks and Iroquois.

1572- A British ship arrives off the shores of an Aztec colony. The ship is given enough provisions to return to Europe, and is peaceably turned back.

1573- The Aztec battleship Montezuma encounters a Spanish warship on patrol near the entrance to the Gulf of Mexica. The Spanish vessel opens fire, but the Aztec ship lands a lucky shot inside the cargo hold, igniting tons of gunpower, destroying the ship. This prompts the Aztecs to issue an ultimatum to Spain: cease all actions in the Americas, on threat of war. The Spanish, previously humiliated by the Aztecs, reluctantly recall all ships back to Europe.

1583- In an experiment by the Aztecs, the first North American wild horses are born.

1585- A massive mounted expedition is sent to explore the central areas of North America, and to make peace with any native peoples. Years pass without word from the travelers.

1592- The North American expedition returns to Tenochtitlan, with a map of their travels and the land`s native tribes.

1593- The Navajo, Apache, and various other southwestern tribes are absorbed into the Aztec Empire. The Maya, a group at the southern end of the Empire, are also annexed.

1596-1603- The Great Plague. Smallpox sweeps throughout the Aztec Empire, killing thousands, if not millions. This begins the long process of Aztec immunization to European diseases.

1603-1609- The Aztec Reformation. The Aztec religion goes through many changes, the first and most important is that human sacrifice, practiced for centuries in the empire, is outlawed. Other such things as cannibalism are banned. This reformation is mainly due to the common belief that the Gods became angry with the Aztecs, and set the Plague upon them. It was also due to exposure to other cultures throughout the world.

1619- The disease-weary Aztec people jubilantly celebrate the 100-year anniversary of Cortes' defeat, now called the Awakening of the Empire.

Way too fast. From the Bronze Age to Gunpowder? Between 1519 and 1531 the Spanish would still be exploring the Caribbean area, so they will come across the Aztecs eventually. Stolen Spanish horses don't do you any good if you've never seen the animal before or have any similar beast of burden on your entire continent. If Cortez had brought all male horses or mules, then the Aztecs would be shit out of luck wouldn't they? The amount that survives Cortez will probably be too small for any meaningful breeding.

1531 the arrival of the Chinese from reports that they some how got from Europe?!? That doesn't hold water.

If Aztec society doesn't reform itself religiously by 1603 then why should it ever? I sincerely doubt the Aztecs will have any allies, Inca or Cherokee, since they are still practicing human sacrifice when they met them. You should roll back the disease infection date to some time after trading begins with the Chinese.

That`s pretty much what I was thinking. I`ll go back and do some more research and revise it. Thanks.

The Aztec were at almost war with some of the Northern Mexico tribes, who actually had more devolped political insitutions,
If one of these conquers the Aztecs 1480~1490, then takes the Aztec name for some reason.
Cortez would encounter a savvyer political group, with more of a chance to beat him. then expand.

It's nice to see a different ATL - Nice, refreshing and rather good too.

But as David commented, the pace of technical progress is waaaay to quick. I didn't know though that all Cortez's animals was male - is that true?

Just make the Chineses pop up and do their thing - They had the means and butterflies are allways good! Or you could move the POD to 14-something were the Chinese is supposed to have discovered America (isn't there a tread on that subject somewhere?). Then the Aztecs would be more, eh, advanced and accustomed to visitors when Cortez drops in...

Please do post more Tetsu!

Best regards!

- Mr.Bluenote.

My comment about Cortez's horses is what are the Aztecs to do with such an alien beast and will they be able to practice animal husbandry on them? Also Trying to breed them in any significant number is also problematic. I just made the comment that if all the horses were male that could present a great hurdle to breeding.

I would also consider if the Chinese were using any sorts of muskets that they would have traded away to begin with. I see it more likely that the Aztecs may be decimated by an earlier contact and that their empire eventually crumbles and another one (or two or more) takes its place. Close attention to be given to the impact of disease and the losses and recovery be realistic.

David S Poepoe said:

I just made the comment that if all the horses were male that could present a great hurdle to breeding.

Click to expand...

Ooops! Sorry, David! I quess I'm getting a bit tired and high strung on koffein!
Hmm, a few captured Spaniards would take care of most of the problems, would they not? If, that is, there were sufficient numbers of animals to breed!

David S Poepoe said:

I would also consider if the Chinese were using any sorts of muskets that they would have traded away to begin with.

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Yes, there is that! They could however introduce gunpower of some sort. Perhaps the Chinese in 14-something establishes a trading colony and later abandon it because of some twist in Imperial policy... that would give the Aztecs some technicals hints and aids, yes?

David S Poepoe said:

I see it more likely that the Aztecs may be decimated by an earlier contact and that their empire eventually crumbles and another one (or two or more) takes its place. Close attention to be given to the impact of disease and the losses and recovery be realistic.

Click to expand...

About disease. Might it not for some reason be the other way around? The new commers get sick and dies in drowes?
I'm not all that well versed in the history of disease, but the diseases that we Europeans brought with us, did they have to have such a momentous impact in the locals or was it just some kind of fluke?

Regards etc ect!

- B.

1421 Chinese contact

What do the Chinese teach the Indians?
20 horses in 1422, copper smelting, swords and shields, Chinese trading factors in the ports, and currency.
20,000 horses in 1457, iron furnaces, muskets and gunpowder, Chinese caravan trade inside the Aztec and Incan empires, and compound interest on loans.
20,000,000 horses in 1492, glass kilns, ships and cannon, Chinese trading posts everywhere in the Americas, and joint stock companies.
The plagues come earlier and they cover the whole of both continents at once, long before the European colonists come. The Indians have more time to recover and prepare. Most Chinese trade before 1492 is with the closer and more advanced Incan and Mexican civilizations. The genetically less diverse Caribbean civilizations are not so exposed to Chinese disease and pressure and stay independent, as compared to when the Spanish came, coughed, and conquered.

Sounds good, Willis! I don't know nearly enough about Aztecs, Incas or Chinese to extrapolate on this, but it would be interesting to see were it ends. Could be a very exciting TL!

Regards and all!

- Mr.Bluenote.

I really don't get how the Chinese suddenly turn up.

I have several problems with this interesting TL, some of which have been discussed earlier.

The biggest problem is the disease factor. You've got to do something to make the Mexicans resistant to old world diseases, or it wouldn't matter if Cortez and his whole army is crushed and drowns in the lake outside Tenochtitlan. I also doubt if the Chinese "1421" contact hypothesis is early enough to have the Mexican population rebound from epidemics 100 years ealier to a point where the Aztec state would even exist in the form Cortez found it.

Another problem is cultural. Even if Cortez was defeated (which could easily have occurred), Mesoamerican culture was probably incapable of understanding and responding to the Spanish invasion in the way you imagine. Asuming ASBs kept disease from being a factor, about all they would probably do is take their vengeance out on the Tlaxcalans and other groups which allied with the Spanish and possibly tighten their control on other subject states in central Mexico. Based on Aztec practice during the Conquest, there would have been no attempt to "use" horses, which they were actually more afraid of than Spanish firearms. Almost certainly all surviving horses and Spaniards would have been killed and sacrificed. Based upon Montezuma's reaction to the Spaniards, the invasion would probably be seen more in religious, not military or strategic terms. It's probably more likely it would lead to significant cultural/ideological debate among Mesoamerican religious elites and perhaps a reduction or collapse of Aztec hegemony...and they'd be just as unprepared when the next fleet of Spaniards showed up in 1525 or so...

...and that raises the question: What are the Spaniards doing? What's to stop them from showing up again in a few years? For this TL to make sense, you've got to explain why they don't come back.

If you want to have the Aztecs survive European contact, I'd suggest creating a transpacific (presumably Chinese) contact PoD in the AD 0-1000 period. This would allow the local Mexican cultures to absorb and bounce back from epidemics, gradually adopt technological innovations such as horses, metallurgy, ocean-going ships, and have a better sense of geography when Cortez shows up (of course this assumes Europeans would not know of the "new world" already from the Chinese or the Chinese would not already be there in force)

Ezcalli in one of the GURPS AE books (google if you don't have the books).

I've been doing some research on these cultures related to the thread we've been writing. These people are smart, but they are embedded in a culture that was relatively unchanged for hundreds of years. (If one looks at the Olmecs and compares them to the Aztecs, the cultural and technological differences are not that great, despite a very long span of time.)

In my opinion the most certain way to have these peoples adopt alien technologoies, such as from either China or Europe, would be for them to almost lose against some sort of earlier incursion.

I'd suggest creating a transpacific (presumably Chinese) contact PoD in the AD 0-1000 period

Click to expand...

Or a stray earlier European landing.

The correct Nahuatl (Aztec) form of Montezuma is Moteuczomah. The `e' and the second `o' are long. The `h' is pronounced as glottal stop.

I think you should take a look at this ATL from the archives about an Aztec Superpower.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discus/messages/4/269.html

Ok, how about this?

The Chinese arrive, like it`s been suggested, in the first half of the fifteenth century. Instead of having a conquistador mentality, the Chinese desire to become allies with the Aztecs. Trading gold and various other things, the Chinese give the Aztecs musket, gunpowder, and ship technologies. (If the Aztecs have any kind of skill at copying technology, such as the Japanese, they`ll catch on quick. And, if I`m not mistaken, gunpowder could be feasably created in the Mexico area then, with sulfur deposits from local volcanoes.) Let`s also say that a plague sweeps through the Empire fairly early, which gradually immunizes the Aztecs from such diseases. This prompts the Aztecs to reform their religion early (with, as I said before, outlawing such things as human sacrifices).

I would also think that, if the Chinese introduced the horse to North America, it could exist in significant numbers by the time of Cortes` arrival, a hundred years after the Chinese. Could these PODs lead up to Cortes arriving in a significantly more advanced Aztec Empire in 1519, with the Aztecs possessing such as firearms, mounted troops, and a small navy?

Maybe some of the Mongol fleet sent form China to Japan that was scattered by a storm (through some incredibly serendipidous series of events) lands somewhere on the West Coast and the technology and horse are dispersed over the two hundred years?

Hmmm... that is a fairly intriguing possibility, but did the Mongols at that time period have anything in the line of gunpowder or musket technology? There`s also the question of the actual Mongol trip here, did they have enough provisions to last the whole way here? They weren`t planning for a very long voyage at all; and I`m fairly sure that they planned on pillaging Japanese villages for most of their food.

Sounds good to me, but then again I don't know a thing about this periode, so...

Did give the TL on the old board a look though, and it was quite clever, I'd say!

Oh, I nearly forgot, did the Chinese have muskets at this time, Tetsu?

Regards and all!

- Mr.Bluenote.

I`m almost positive they did, because if the Europeans did, the Chinese most certainly did, having invented gunpowder four or five hundred years before Cortes` time.