Kamehameha the Great Dies uniting the Islands

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

Exactly as the Title says.
Suppose Kamehameha I/The Great Dies during the Battle for Maui or Oahu.

I'm a bit rusty on my Hawaiian History, but would they continue the Conquest of the Rest of the Island Chain? If so, who would lead it?

on the other end of the spectrum, What if the islands Remain seperated, Ruled By their own Ali'i?
would The European Powers sweep in and divide the Islands between them? would be see something like French Oahu, British Big Island, maybe even German Molokai?
Or would Britian just sweep through and take all the islands?

anyway, what do you think?

[RGB]

If Kamehameha dies, then the Europeans may really back any other dynasty.

And, for example, here was an attempt DURING Kamehameha's time. Suppose Kamehameha dies, the Islands are still divided, and Shaffer never quarrels with Baranov - Russian Hawaii with Kaumuali's dynasty in place? It would require the Tsar to actually give a damn for a change, but hey, it's actually within the realm of the possible. But of course it won't be all smooth - not if the Americans and the British deside to contest it, of course

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

Originally Posted by RGB

If Kamehameha dies, then the Europeans may really back any other dynasty.

True.
the big question would be which?
If I remember Oahu and Maui just got out of a war, so they probably would be a bad choice.
Maybe one of the conquered ali'i on the Big island?

And, for example, here was an attempt DURING Kamehameha's time. Suppose Kamehameha dies, the Islands are still divided, and Shaffer never quarrels with Baranov - Russian Hawaii with Kaumuali's dynasty in place? It would require the Tsar to actually give a damn for a change, but hey, it's actually within the realm of the possible.

Hm. Russian Hawaii. there's something you don't see everyday.

But of course it won't be all smooth - not if the Americans and the British deside to contest it, of course

I figured.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

You could see british Oahu, Russian Hawaii (big island) and US Maui all at the same time. After all, if the islands aren't united when the big powers start playing, they could each take a chunk.

[False Dmitri]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

You could see british Oahu, Russian Hawaii (big island) and US Maui all at the same time. After all, if the islands aren't united when the big powers start playing, they could each take a chunk.

The powers were willing to divide Samoa, so dividing Hawaii is definitely an option.

American imperialism was largely indirect - it was private companies, most particularly Dole, that engineered the overthrow of the monarchy and the annexation of the islands at the end of the 19th century. Before that, the only direct colonization the US had engaged in was the coaling station at Midway. If other powers get interested in creating protectorates or even colonies in Hawaii before the 1890s, it's quite possible the US wouldn't even get a piece, except for Midway. Maybe some of the adjacent empty atolls, as well.

[David S Poepoe]

Originally Posted by Benkarnell

The powers were willing to divide Samoa, so dividing Hawaii is definitely an option.

American imperialism was largely indirect - it was private companies, most particularly Dole, that engineered the overthrow of the monarchy and the annexation of the islands at the end of the 19th century. Before that, the only direct colonization the US had engaged in was the coaling station at Midway. If other powers get interested in creating protectorates or even colonies in Hawaii before the 1890s, it's quite possible the US wouldn't even get a piece, except for Midway. Maybe some of the adjacent empty atolls, as well.

Great Heavens! The Dole Company had nothing to do with the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy. There was a Sanford Dole, a judge on the Supreme Court, that headed the revolt and became the President of the Republic of Hawaii. The Dole Pineapple Company you are thinking about wasn't founded until the later in the early 20th century. The Dole here is related to Sanford Dole.

The US did acquire Midway and Wake at an earlier date than 1893.

[False Dmitri]

Oops - sorry, didn't mean to implicate an upstanding company there.

Nevertheless, the point still stands: the US takeover of Hawaii began without the initiative of the US government.

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

You could see british Oahu, Russian Hawaii (big island) and US Maui all at the same time. After all, if the islands aren't united when the big powers start playing, they could each take a chunk.

ok, British Oahu I can understand, US maui I can see, but why Russian Big Island? wouldn't Russian Kauai make more sense?

also, that still leave Molokai, Lanai, and Nihue, (possibley Kaho'olawe as well, but I think that might fall under who ever Controls Maui) Up for Grabs, perhaps the French or even the Germans make a grab for Hawaii?

[David S Poepoe]

Originally Posted by Benkarnell

Oops - sorry, didn't mean to implicate an upstanding company there.

Nevertheless, the point still stands: the US takeover of Hawaii began without the initiative of the US government.

No the intiative was there from US Minister Stevens.

[David S Poepoe]

The death of Kamehameha would have to be establish first. Kauai became his more thru the marriage of his wife Kaahumanu. Kamehameha did have sons that may have succeded him, even if under the Regency of Kaahumanu. I wouldn't rule out the idea that many of the chiefs that sided with Kamehameha probably were aware of the benefits of uniting the islands and just may have continued on where he left off.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_Angerboda

ok, British Oahu I can understand, US maui I can see, but why Russian Big Island? wouldn't Russian Kauai make more sense?

also, that still leave Molokai, Lanai, and Nihue, (possibley Kaho'olawe as well, but I think that might fall under who ever Controls Maui) Up for Grabs, perhaps the French or even the Germans make a grab for Hawaii?

Oops! didn't look at the link. you're right, of course.

[Lugal]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_Angerboda

that still leave Molokai, Lanai, and Nihue, (possibley Kaho'olawe as well, but I think that might fall under who ever Controls Maui) Up for Grabs, perhaps the French or even the Germans make a grab for Hawaii?

I seem to recall that Maui controlled both Kaho'olawe and Lanai at the time. Nihue would have gone with Kauai.

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

Originally Posted by Lugal

I seem to recall that Maui controlled both Kaho'olawe and Lanai at the time.

Did it? I need to brush up on my History of Hawaii.

Nihue would have gone with Kauai.

Makes sense.

So what would be the most plausible split?
I think Britain and The US would argue over Oahu, France would get Maui, Kaho'olawe, and Lanai, Russia gets Kauai and Nihue, so who ever loses the argument over Oahu would get the Big Island.

or would Germany try to muscle in and claim something?

[MadMc]

this split would make the Pacific theaters of both world wars alot more interesting, you could see Japan gobbeling up most of Hawaii before american intervention

[David S Poepoe]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_Angerboda

So what would be the most plausible split?
I think Britain and The US would argue over Oahu, France would get Maui, Kaho'olawe, and Lanai, Russia gets Kauai and Nihue, so who ever loses the argument over Oahu would get the Big Island.

or would Germany try to muscle in and claim something?

While I don't have my Hawaiian history books before me I think we should look back to the arrival of Captain Cook and then the voyages of Captain Vancouver. There appears to have been a friendship struck up between Kamehameha and Vancouver. I believe that Kamehameha did try to have Hawaii declared a British protectorate and Vancouver declined - this is different than the Paulet-Thomas Affair.

Realistically, if the islands were not unified they would have been divided up before the arrival of the Germans in the Pacific. In all likelihood the US would have been edged out also. They are late comers to the game. The Russians probably would have given Kauai up at the same time as Alaska since they've got no military presence in the Pacific to hold either. The French and British will probably divide the chain between themselves.

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

Originally Posted by MadMc

you could see Japan gobbeling up most of Hawaii before american intervention

Why?
and How?

At this point Japan is still in the Edo period, no intrest elsewhere.

[MadMc]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_Angerboda

Why?
and How?

At this point Japan is still in the Edo period, no intrest elsewhere.

you obviously didn't read my entire post, i said during ww1 and 2

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

Originally Posted by David S Poepoe

Realistically, if the islands were not unified they would have been divided up before the arrival of the Germans in the Pacific. In all likelihood the US would have been edged out also. They are late comers to the game. The Russians probably would have given Kauai up at the same time as Alaska since they've got no military presence in the Pacific to hold either. The French and British will probably divide the chain between themselves.

hm. Makes sense.
So how would the islands get split between them?
I can see the British holding onto the Big Island, and Oahu for sure, and the French Will probably get Maui, Lanai and Kaho'olawe.
If, and when Russia pulls out, would the French get Nihue and Kauai, the British or split between the who.

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

Originally Posted by MadMc

you obviously didn't read my entire post, i said during ww1 and 2

alright then, how, pray i ask does Japan suddenly get the supplies and logistics to invade and conquere the Islands durring either WWI or WWII?

and why?

[David S Poepoe]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_Angerboda

hm. Makes sense.
So how would the islands get split between them?
I can see the British holding onto the Big Island, and Oahu for sure, and the French Will probably get Maui, Lanai and Kaho'olawe.
If, and when Russia pulls out, would the French get Nihue and Kauai, the British or split between the who.

The French could get Niihau and Kauai and the British the rest, or at least those islands conquered by Kamehameha. Depends on the time.