Challenge:If China discovers america instead of europe
- Thread starter kasumigenx
- Start date
I guess there's something of a "so what?" element there. Beyond the possibility that Chinese vessels did visit California around 1421, did the Chinese have a history of establishing colonies? I don't recall any offhand. You'd need to create a far less insular attitude among Chinese leadership, perhaps a China without Confucianism? What would China's motivation be?
Read Poul Anderson
Read Poul Anderson's Time Patrol story "The Only Game In Town" to find out...also many others, search "Uchronia"...Chinese exploration and settlement of the Americas starting in the early 15th century could have been encouraged by the collapse of the Yuan dynasty in the 14th century and of the Ming in the 17th...pushing peasants and dissenters overseas.
Read Poul Anderson's Time Patrol story "The Only Game In Town" to find out...also many others, search "Uchronia"...Chinese exploration and settlement of the Americas starting in the early 15th century could have been encouraged by the collapse of the Yuan dynasty in the 14th century and of the Ming in the 17th...pushing peasants and dissenters overseas.
FDW
Banned
I think that in the case of the chinese discovering america, and settling it, given that you keep a "butterfly net" around the west coast till the spanish arrive, you could see the spanish go north instead of south, which could lead to some amazing stuff.
Faeelin
Banned
The Chinese history of establishing colonies varies. No major ons overseas, although Chinese immigrants reshaped the demographics of all of Southeast Asia in the 16th-19th centuries. But within the boundaries of China proper, there was a sustained and systematic effort to, well, colonize. (And what is now China proper wasn't always, of course).
Even if the Ming fleets reached America, colonization is a completely different story. The Americas is just too far to attract Chinese immigration IMO. If colonization was considered, surely South Africa, Madagascar and Australia would be more appealing than the Americas.
Most likely the Chinese would bring the more sophisticated American civilizations into its tribute system. The Amer-Indians would get some technology and China would get some American crops. That would by itself have massive consequences.
Most likely the Chinese would bring the more sophisticated American civilizations into its tribute system. The Amer-Indians would get some technology and China would get some American crops. That would by itself have massive consequences.
Faeelin
Banned
Gold, and then silver. And jade.
Yes, yes, additional liquidity isn't going to magically solve the budget problems, and you'll get a lot of Confucian scholars wondering why it is that mining more gold doesn't make the Empire stronger, but it won't be noticeable for a while.
The Chinese would be very interested in trading for the precious metals. But they don't need colonies for this. The Amer-Indians would be just as willing to trade for Chinese steel, silk, and maybe horses.
Access to more gold and silver would not increase wealth per se, but it could be used to buy goods in the Middle East and India. Besides it would drive down prices for precious metals, which would be the equivalent of lowering taxes for the farmers.
IOTL the drying up of Mexican and Peruvian silver during the wars of independence from Spain caused excessive burden on the Chinese economy and sent it into a multi-decade long depression.
the idea of Chinese tributary states on the american west coast is probably as close as you're going to get to actual chinese colonization, but that still might be enough. if the Chinese were indeed bringing steel and gunpowder over to the Americas, than when Cortez and his ilk arrive the tributaries would likely build cultural ties with the country giving them the weapons to fight off the europeans.
Philip
Donor
In all likelihood, the Europeans will find a land with a greatly reduced population compared to what they found IOTL.
Replaced? Doubtful within maybe 60-80 years.
Also, it'd be ironic because Columbus really would have thought he really had found the shortcut to Asia...
Hendryk
Banned
Even if we take the hypothesis of maximum Chinese expansion into the Americas, I don't think we'll see significant Chinese settlement of the interior. Most of the settlers would be along the Pacific coastline, and insofar as the rest of the North American landmass would see permanent settlement, my own take is that it would be in the lower Mississippi valley and along the Gulf of Mexico: better for trade and rice-growing than the hinterland, which would probably be left to the natives.
I started a timeline once where the Chinese establish contact with the NW Coast. I should dig it out and give it another look.
Alongside totem poles and potlaches, the various peoples use Chinese steel, and a Chinese-based writing system. A form of Chinese becomes a lingua franca between tribes. Various warriors serve as mercenaries in china and then come home and give huge potlaches with the wealth they gained there.
I should keep going and see what happens when the Russians and Lewis & Clark show up.
Alongside totem poles and potlaches, the various peoples use Chinese steel, and a Chinese-based writing system. A form of Chinese becomes a lingua franca between tribes. Various warriors serve as mercenaries in china and then come home and give huge potlaches with the wealth they gained there.
I should keep going and see what happens when the Russians and Lewis & Clark show up.
Faeelin
Banned
They need colonies if they want California's gold, or British Columbia's, say, jade. And the early Ming Emperors don't seem the type to smile amiably and train with what are after all stone or bronze age peoples.
But China already had a trade surplus anyway, no? So is there a real change?
And how would driving down the price of precious metals lower taxes for farmers? I suppose it would if there's more money and taxes remain constant; but this just means the government gets a nasty bout of inflation. Then again, it did OTL anyway...
California's gold was not discovered until the 19th century. The Aztecs and Incas had plenty of gold. The purchasing power of gold in the Americas was much lower than in Eurasia. It's just a matter of trading with them. Ming era trade with the Philippines for example required no colonies. The Chinese merchants would lay out their ware on the beach, the natives would show up with indigenous goods to barter.
I recall we had this discussion before and we took the opposite position as now. I agree that from the government's point of view getting more precious metals would not make sense. However if private enterprise took over the trade they can stand to gain immensely.
As far as taxes go. Chinese farmers paid fixed taxes in silver (gold was very scare). More silver in circulation would drive down its purchasing value and thus reduce tax burden. This is what happened when Spanish silver flooded the Chinese market, it triggered a massive economic boom in the 18th century, only to crash in the early 19th century. I have no idea what the trade balance was in the 15th century.