Keeping the British Liberal Party flag flying high

[stevep]

Originally Posted by pipisme

Steve,

About the naming of the 1st three KGV class BBs (I assume they were battleships). The second one will be named after King Henry IX. Prince Albert, the Duke of York does not become king but acts as Regent for King Henry (born 19 December 1932). Albert did not have any links with Nazi Germany and is in favour of King Edward's abdication.

pipisme

pipisme

Sorry, I missed that. Had forgotten that Edward had an heir so that would fit in. Tradition was that the 1st capital ship laid down in a new reign would be named after that monarch so it would be quite possible.

Sorry, yes, BB is a standard historical naval abbreviation for battleships.

Steve

[stevep]

pipisme

Damn that makes for an awkward situation in the longer term. He seems like within the limitations of his illness he would make a good, possibly a great king but it will be a problem both in itself and in terms of reaction to it. May be some arguing that given the crisis ahead a stronger figure is needed, although an irrelevant issue in some way as its unlikely the war will outlast his uncle's regency. Also he may get a large measure of sympathy for the way he does what he can despite the affliction.

He seems rather young to tell that much about his interests and character. Would be interested to know why he had the special interest in 17thC history as there were some very dramatic events occurring there, not least the civil war and execution of one of his ancestors.

Steve

Originally Posted by pipisme

Minutes of the meeting of the Constitutional Crisis Committee held in the Cabinet Office, Whitehall, in the morning of Thursday 23rd February 1939.

The Lord President of the Council [Rhys Hopkin Morris] presented medical and psychiatric reports on Prince Henry. The Prince suffered from cerebral palsy which required him to use a wheelchair. Also his speech was difficult to understand. (1). He communicated in writing, by sign language and by finger spelling. Otherwise the Prince was in good health. As to his character he was kind, compassionate, empathetic, sensitive and thoughtful. He was quiet and introverted. He was developing a strong sense of fairness and wanting to be true to his principles. (2) He was of above average intelligence. On his 6th birthday [19th December 1938] he eagerly took the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Test. This showed him to have an IQ of 136. (3) The Prince had a strong interest in politics and history, especially 17th century British history.

(1) For cerebral palsy see http://www.scope.org.uk/help-and-inf...cerebral-palsy .

(2) According to the MBTI in OTL, as an adult he would be an INFP.

(3) This made him a gifted child.

[pipisme]

Originally posted by stevep
Would be interested to know why he had the special interest in 17thc history as there were some very dramatic events occurring there, not least the civil war and the execution of one of his ancestors.

Yes Prince Henry was strongly interested in that period because of it was a time of great historical and political drama, with a wide range of interestingly different characters.

Minutes of the Constitutional Crisis Committee, 23rd February 1939, continued.

It was agreed that Prince Henry would become king, with the designation of Henry IX, upon the abdication of King Edward VIII. His uncle, Prince Albert, Duke of York, would act as Regent until Henry attained his 18th birthday.

It was agreed that the Committee would inform the King's private secretary that they would meet the King at Buckingham Palace at 12 noon, and ask for his abdication.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by pipisme

Yes Prince Henry was strongly interested in that period because of it was a time of great historical and political drama, with a wide range of interestingly different characters.

Minutes of the Constitutional Crisis Committee, 23rd February 1939, continued.

It was agreed that Prince Henry would become king, with the designation of Henry IX, upon the abdication of King Edward VIII. His uncle, Prince Albert, Duke of York, would act as Regent until Henry attained his 18th birthday.

It was agreed that the Committee would inform the King's private secretary that they would meet the King at Buckingham Palace at 12 noon, and ask for his abdication.

pipisme

Hope this works. Given how petulant Edward VIII seems to have been at times he may be unwilling to give up without a fight, which could complicate matters. OTL there was the matter of love and the fact he couldn't marry the women he wanted without abdicating. TTL he could get bloody angry that anyone dares to object to his views and dig his heels in. Hope not but a danger I fear.

Steve

[Julius Vogel]

Yet another twist!

[Blackadder mk 2]

I can see Edward resenting his son for this. But then again who cares what he thinks.

[pipisme]

Continuation of minutes of meeting of Constitutional Crisis Committee 23rd February 1939.

Mr. John Colville [Dominions Secretary in the previous Conservative government] suggested that the King should be offered the Governorship of a British colony in compensation for abdicating the throne.

The Committee discussed this proposal. It was agreed that the King would not be offered the Governorship of a populous colony, but of a remote one with a small population. Mr. James Maxton's [leader of the ILP] suggestions of the Falkland Islands, and of St. Helena were rejected. The Lord Chancellor [Senator Norman Birkett] suggested that the King be offered the post of Resident Commissioner of the British Solomon Islands Protectotate. (1) After consulting the relevant page in an atlas of the world, and further discussion, the Committee agreed to this suggestion.

Senator Viscount Halifax [Lord President of the Council in the previous Conservative government] asked if the King would receive any title on his abdication. The Prime Minister [Isaac Foot] said that would be a decision for King Henry IX on the advice of the Duke of York, as Regent.

Mr. Philip Noel-Baker [the leader of the Labour Party] asked what course of action the Committee should take if the King did not agree to abdicate, even with the offer of the offer of Resident Commissioner of the British Solomon Islands.

The Prime Minister replied that he was confident that the King would know where his duty to Britain and the Commonwealth and Empire laid, and abdicate.

Mr. Noel-Baker suggested that if the King does not agree to abdicate the Committee should threaten to prosecute him for treason.

The Lord Chancellor said that in his opinion the King had not committed any act of treason. However if he did so he should certainly be charged. He was supported in this opinion by Sir Douglas Hogg [Home Secretary in the previous Conservative government and a barrister].

The meeting ended with the members of the Committee agreeing to meet again when the necessity arose. Then they went by ministerial cars to Buckingham Palace for their meeting with the King at 12 noon.

At the meeting the Prime Minister requested the King, to abdicate as King of Great Britain, as he had lost the confidence of the British people and parliament, and of the British Commonwealth. He was offered the post of Resident Commissioner of the Solomon Islands Protectorate.

The King refused the rquest and the offer. He said that most of the British people were behind him in his defence of freedom of speech. He would not be driven from his throne by a collection of Socialists, Liberals and so-called Conservatives. He asked if "that [expletive deleted] bitch the Duchess of York" had incited the Committee to demand his abdication as she wanted to be the wife of the Regent, that stutterer, if he abdicated. He said that he would never allow his son, Prince Henry, that crippled weakling to become king of Great Britain. He requested that he be given the opportunity to address the nation on BBT Radio [British Broadcasting Trust, this TL's analogue of the BBC] to present his point of view.

The Prime Minister rejected the King's request on the grounds that it was contrary to constitutional precedent. However he would be allowed to broadcast the announcement of his abdication. The other members of the Committee agreed with the Prime Minister

The King said that he had prominent friends in the press who would be eager to publish the story that a bunch of politicians had prevented the King from broadcasting to his people.

The members of the Committee then left Buckingham Palace.

(1) For the Solomon Islands see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Islands. In OTL Francis Noel Ashley was Resident Commissioner from 1929-1939, as he was in this TL from 1929.

[stevep]

pipisme

Damn, I was afraid of this. While he's a repulsive swine there's no actual law against that and we have had plenty of equally or more repulsive characters on the throne so not sure how the politicians can remove him if he doesn't agree. Coupled with the fact that he will have some support and that it still requires the monarch's signature on legislation if he gets really awkward things could get very messy and Britain be distracted and divided at an important time.

Tempted to say letting him speak on the radio would be the best way of killing any public sympathy but can't rely on him being that stupid and abusive if he was broadcasting.

A bit surprised that they didn't offer a bigger or more developed colony. Even Bermuda which has the attraction of being near the US so he could well spend a lot of time there. The Solomon's were pretty undeveloped and miles from anywhere other than Australia.

Presuming that Maxton [and everybody else] realised the significance of St Helena, which is another reason for rejecting that.

Steve

[perfectgeneral]

The Bahamas is where he was 'assigned' during WWII in OTL. Bermuda was an important naval base (in 1933 an RAF base opened too) .

In August, a British warship dispatched the pair to the Bahamas, where, in the view of Churchill, the Duke could do the least damage to the British war effort.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_...m#World_War_II

[stevep]

Originally Posted by perfectgeneral

The Bahamas is where he was 'assigned' during WWII in OTL. Bermuda was an important naval (1933 RAF) base.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_...m#World_War_II

perfectgeneral

Duh! Sorry, well corrected.

Steve

[pipisme]

Originally posted by stevep
A bit surprised they didn't offer a bigger or more developed colony.

The four Conservative members of the Constitutional Crisis Committee wanted to offer the King the governorship of Kenya, but they were overruled by the other members. But even if the Committee had made that offer the King would not have accepted it, as it was not prestigious enough. Possibly he would have agreed to become Governor-General of Canada, but MacKenzie King would never have approved of Edward's appointment. When he was Prince of Wales he purchased a 4,000 acre ranch in Highwood River near Calgary in the autumn of 1919. That was before the POD of this TL. He kept the ranch when he became king.

However there is room for compromise on the question of offering the King a colonial governorship.

Originally posted by stevep
Presuming that Maxton [and everybody else] realised the significance of St. Helena, which is another reason for rejecting that.

Yes they all realised the significance of St. Helena.

So far in this TL Sir Oswald Mosley has only had walk-on parts. He was elected as an Independent MP for Harrow in the general election in December 1923, as in OTL. However in this TL he did not join the Labour Party. He was re-elected as Independent MP for Harrow [in a straight fight with the Conservative candidate] in the April 1928 general election. In March 1930 he published the Mosley Proposals which were similar to the Mosley Memorandum in OTL.

In April 1930 he founded the New Party, which attracted the support of a few MPs. In the general election on 27 October 1932 Mosley came 3rd and last in Harrow as the New Party candidate. He was only New Party candidate who polled more than 10% of the vote. The New Party was not a fascist party. Since then (Post #170, dated October 5th, 2009) Mosley has not appeared in this TL, unless I have missed him in my quick reading.

In January and 1933 Mosley toured Italy where he met Mussolini and converted to Fascism. When he returned to Britain he proposed a merger of the New Party with the British Fascists. After several months negotiations, the merger was agreed and on 1st September 1933, Mosley formally launched the British Union of Fascists, with himself as Leader. That was the also the publication date of his book The Greater Britain . Much the same as the book of that name in OTL.

[stevep]

pipisme

Given his attitude I think any colonial governership would be out of the question and now he's made clear his contempt for Parliament I doubt if another offer would be made.

Ugh, Mosley taking the fascist route and coming to prominence. Probably he will side with Edward and hopefully they will take each other down.

Steve

[Some Bloke]

How about this for the BB names
King George V, King Henry IX, Prince of Wales, Duke of York, Prince Regent

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Some Bloke

How about this for the BB names
King George V, King Henry IX, Prince of Wales, Duke of York, Prince Regent

Some Bloke

It would depend on whether people use the situation when laid down, which happened OTL. Or changed to fit the new circumstances. In the latter case you could have KHIX and DoY but there isn't a PoW at the moment. Could do as they did OTL with the last two in using names of famous admirals, or plenty of other names associated with the RN. [I did read once that initially the last two were to be named Jellicoe and Beatty but it was decided that those two were still too controversial and recent]. However plenty of other famous admirals, say adding Collingwood to Anson and Howe.

Steve

[pipisme]

From its launch on 1 September 1933 the British Union of Fascists (BUF) attracted fervent support. Several Conservative MPs were favourable to the BUF, though none actually joined. However a few local councillors did. In December 1934 the BUF acquired the support of Viscount Rothermere, the owner of the Daily Mail. Rothermere opened his campaign on 6 December with a leader-page article written by him. Headlined 'Hurrah for the Blackshirts', it claimed that Germany and Italy were 'beyond all doubt the best-governed nations in Europe today' and that Mosley would do the same for Britain. At the 'next, vital election, Britain's survival as a Great Power will depend on the existence of a well-organised Party of the Right', which will be ready to take power with the same directness of purpose and energy of method that Hitler and Mussolini have shown. The article ended with a list of addresses at which readers could enrol in the BUF. (1)

(1) In OTL Rothermere wrote this article for the Daily Mail dated 8 January 1934. The quotations and summary are taken from the book The Fascists in Britain by Colin Cross, London: Barrie and Rockliff, London, 1961.

[pipisme]

The British Union of Fascists (BUF) booked Olympia in West Kensington, London for a mass rally on Thursday 9 May 1935. However the rally was strongly opposed by the London Trades Council, and by the Labour Party, the ILP, the Communist Party and other left-wingers. They asked Rhys Hopkin Morris, the Liberal Home Secretary in the Liberal/Labour coalition government to ban the meeting. He refused on the ground of freedom of speech and assembly, however he did impose the following conditions on the BUF:
1) All the seats must be available to ticket holders only.

2) Only the police would keep order inside and outside the hall.

3) Only the police would search people entering the hall for weapons.

4) Tickets would be scrutinised by independent stewards only. (1)

On the evening of the rally about 10,000 anti-Fascists marched to Olympia and demonstrated outside the hall. A force of 1,300 foot and mounted police had difficulty in keeping the crowd in order, and some eighty people were arrested for obstruction and assaults on the police. (2) In the entrances to the hall there were long queues as the police searched the ticket holders for weapons, and the stewards scrutinized the tickets (some were forged). Weapons were confiscated by the police - razors, coshes, knuckledusters, rubber truncheons, and a walking stick. (3)

Eventually, inside the hall and an hour after the advertised time, Mosley, dressed in the Blackshirt uniform, walked to the rostrum. His voice reinforced by a battery of twenty-four loudspeakers, he started speaking. Immediately he was met by interruptions by anti-Fascists who had somehow managed to acquire valid tickets. The interrupters were shouted down by the rest of the audience. Mosley spoke for two hours and was frequently interrupted. During his speech whenever fighting with bare fists broke out between the Blackshirts and the anti-Fascists, they were separated by police. No weapons were used. (4)

In the audience were several Conservative MPs. The next day they wrote to The Times commending the police for keeping order inside and outside the hall. The Daily Mail for 10 May reported the rally on its front page, and praised it in an editorial as a triumph for Fascism, a victory for free speech over the 'Reds', and as being rowdy but mainly peaceful.

(1) At the BUF rally at Olympia on 7 June 1934 in OTL there were the following differences from this TL: there were 13,000 tickets for sale and 2,000 free tickets; Blackshirts and not the police kept order inside the hall; Blackshirts searched ticket holders for weapons, scrutinized them for forged tickets and acted as stewards.

(2) In OTL 760 foot and mounted police were outside the hall, and around fifty people were arrested by the police.

(3) In OTL the Blackshirts and the anti-Fascists alleged that these weapons were used by the other side.

(4) In OTL weapons were used and a number of people were injured, though the greater part of the fighting was by bare fists. The worst casualty was a student from Sheffield University who spent nine days in hospital with head wounds and concussion.

[stevep]

pipisme

Sounds like a definite improvement on OTL, although the reduced level of violence may slow the discrediting of fascism a bit.

Steve

[pipisme]

From the spring of 1934 the British Union of Fascists (BUF) turned sharply to the right and greatly watered down elements of socialism in its policies. This enabled it to keep the support of the Daily Mail. It became a largely anti-semitic, right-wing authoritarian populist party. It contested 74 constituencies in the general election for the House of Commons on 16 January 1936. In that election the Daily Mail urged its readers to vote Conservative, or BUF in seats contested by them. The BUF put up candidates in seats held by Conservative cabinet ministers, by liberal Conservatives, by prominent Liberal, Labour and ILP members, in constituencies with a large Jewish population, and a number of industrial and agricultural constituencies.

The BUF did not win any seats. Its best result was in Liberal held Bethnal Green North-East where Mosley polled 28.2% of the vote and came second. However its average vote in the 74 constituencies it contested was only 5.7%. But this made it the fifth largest party in terms of votes.

The BUF did not contest the elections to the Senate on 4 March 1936 because it wanted to abolish that body.

However around 15 to 20 Conservative MPs and in the region of 10 Conservative Senators were sympathetic to the BUF in varying degrees. They were Fascist fellow travellers. They did not include any ministers in Sir Samuel Hoare's government.

[Alikchi]

Interesting to see the BUF getting a reasonable vote share. The electorate is quite fractured.

As always, great writing. Keep it going.

[pipisme]

The growth of the British Union of Fascists (BUF) continued after the general election on 16 January 1936. They staged mass rallies and the Blackshirts paraded in London, Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds and other British cities. Though not in Glasgow with its strong socialist traditions.

The BUF also infiltrated the constituency associations of liberal and mainstream Conservative MPs, though not enough to gain a majority in any association. This tactic was known as entryism.

On Sunday 19 September 1937 the Blackshirts planned a march through the East End of London, including the Jewish areas. It was to be the biggest ever show of Fascist strength in the East End. The Jews feared that it would result in an anti-semitic pogrom. Left-wingers saw it as an act of Fascist aggression. It was widely expected that the march would result in violence. During the previous week leaders of the Liberal, Labour, ILP and Communist Parties, and prominent members of the Jewish community, visited Sir Douglas Hogg, the Home Secretary, and asked him to ban the march.