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  #501  
Old September 6th, 2010, 11:01 AM
pipisme pipisme is offline
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The British troops were welcomed by the Catholic community in Londonderry. The Protestant attitude was of sullen resentment and low-level hostility.

There were calls across the political spectrum for the early recall of Parliament from its Christmas recess to debate the situation in Northern Ireland and the Anglo-Irish agreement. Both the House of Commons and the House of Lords reassembled on 12th January 1926.

The Liberal and Labour Parties supported the agreement. The Conservative Party was divided. The official Conservative line was to support the agreement, but to condemn the Liberal government for "coercing Ulster", and that the city of Londonderry should stay as part of Northern Ireland.
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  #502  
Old September 8th, 2010, 03:20 PM
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The leadership of the Conservative Party could not credibly oppose the Anglo-Irish Agreement of December 1925 with its main provisions of giving effect to the recommendations of the Ireland/Northern Ireland boundary commission and the establishment of a Council of Ireland, because these provisions were part of the Anglo-Irish Treaty of which Conservative cabinet ministers in the Lloyd George coalition were signatories in December 1921. However that did not stop Sir Laming Worthington-Evans, who as secretary of state for war in December 1921 signed the Treaty, resigning from the shadow cabinet as shadow war secretary on 11th January 1926. He said that he expected the boundary commission to recommend very minor changes in the border, and that he regarded the Council of Ireland as just a sop to get the Sinn Finn delegates to agree to partition.

On 12th January, the first day of the House of Commons debate on the Anglo-Irish Agreement and the situation in Northern Ireland, Stanley Baldwin, the leader of the Conservative opposition, made what many regard as the finest speech of his political career. He said that he hoped the agreement would lay the foundation of a true and lasting peace between the Irish Free State and Northern Ireland, and between Catholic and Protestant on the island of Ireland. He requested that that if the city of Londonderry could not remain as part of Northern Ireland, at least the predominantly Protestant Waterside district of the city, on the east bank of the River Foyle should stay. (1)

Sir Francis Acland, the Prime Minister, said that he was sympathetic to Baldwin's request but that he would have to consult with his cabinet colleagues and with William Cosgrave, President of the Executive Council of the Irish Free State.

Baldwin's proposal was agreed at a meeting of the cabinet on 13th January, and after telephone and telegraphic communication between London and Dublin, by William Cosgrave and his cabinet on 14th January. On the same day, in the debate in the House of Commons, Geoffrey Howard, the Northern Ireland minister (2), announced that the Waterside district of Londonderry would remain within Northern Ireland.

(1) Here is a map showing the religious distribution in the city of Derry sometime after 1991: http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/...y_religion.gif . The Waterside district includes the red area on the map.

(2) Howard's official title was under-secretary of state at the home office, but he was generally called the minister for Northern Ireland.
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  #503  
Old September 11th, 2010, 01:57 PM
pipisme pipisme is offline
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On 14 January 1926 the UK House of Commons voted to approve the Anglo-Irish agreement by a large majority. With Liberals and Labour voting in favour, the official Conservative position was to abstain. However 43 voted against, including 5 of their 11 MPs from Northern Ireland. But 9 Tories voted for the government. Their number included Winston Churchill, Walter Elliott and two Northern Ireland members.

Meanwhile the Northern Ireland Parliament assembled on 12 January. In the House of Commons Sir James Craig, the Ulster Unionist Prime Minister, moved a motion rejecting the agreement. The Nationalists and Labour proposed an amendment supporting it. The amendment was backed by Miles Barbour and Hugh Pollard, the two Ulster Unionist ministers who had resigned from the government and were also MPs. Craig said that if the opposition amendment was passed he would call a general election.

The Northern Ireland cabinet, the ministers who had resigned and Joe Devlin, the Nationalist leader, were kept informed of the progress of negotiations regarding the compromise in respect of the city of Londonderry.

The number of seats held by each party and by independents in the Northern Ireland House of Commons, in OTL and this TL, were as follows:

Ulster Unionist: 33
Nationalist: 10
Independent Unionist: 3
Labour: 3
Republican: 2
Unbought Tenants: 1 (in OTL he stood as a Liberal candidate in the 1929 UK general election).

The two Republicans did not take up their seats. So that left 50 seats, which meant 26 votes for a majority.

On 14 January the Northern Ireland House of Commons voted in favour of the amendement to accept the Anglo-Irish agreement (as amended by the city of Londonderry compromise) by 27 votes to 22. Ten Ulster Unionists and the three independent Unionists voted for the amendment. The Speaker did not vote. Immediately after the result of the vote was announced, Sir James Craig told MPs that a general election would be held on 23 February.

On 15 January the ten rebel Ulster Unionist MPs and the three independent Unionists agreed to form the Progressive Unionist Party. They were joined by seven of the twenty-five Ulster Unionist senators, including the Marquess of Londonderry, the former Minister of Education. There were 26 senators in total. The remaining senator was a member of the Northern Ireland Labour Party. Milne Barbour became the leader of the Progressive Unionists.

In the following days and weeks around 28 percent of members of the Ulster Unionist Party left to join the Progressive Unionists.

The result of the general election to the Northern ireland House of Commons held on 23 February 1926 was as follows:

Ulster Unionist: 21 seats
Progressive Unionist: 14 seats
Nationalist: 12 seats
Labour: 4 seats
Liberal: 1 seat (previously Unbought Tenants)

The Progressive Unionists and Nationalists agreed to form a coalition government with Miles Barbour as Prime Minister and Joe Devlin as Minister of Home Affairs. Of the other five cabinet posts the Progressive Unionists took three and the Nationalists two. The Nationalists agreed not to raise the issue of the border with the Irish Free State. The coalition government was suppported by the Labour and Liberal members.

Of the eleven Ulster Unionist members of the Westminster Parliament, three left to join the Progressive Unionists: Robert Lynn (Belfast, West); Thomas Moles (Belfast, South); Thomas Sinclair (Queen's University of Belfast). But they continued to take the Conservative Whip, as did the remaining Ulster Unionist members.
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  #504  
Old September 14th, 2010, 11:50 AM
pipisme pipisme is offline
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In the Irish Free State the Anglo-Irish agreement was supported by the ruling Cumann na nGaedheal (CNG) and the Labour Party, but opposed by Sinn Fein. Though Labour wanted the CNG government to concentrate on economic and social issues. Sinn Fein, led by Eamon de Valera, opposed the agreement for the following reasons:

1) The agreement was based on the Anglo-Irish treaty signed in December 1921. In the pro-treaty/anti-treaty split in Sinn Fein in 1922, the anti-treaty side kept the Sinn Fein name, the pro-treaty side became CNG. Therefore Sinn Fein opposed the agreement on principle.

2) The Council of Ireland was a trojan horse for British imperialism in Ireland. It would be dominated by the 'green Tories' and the 'orange Tories'. In other words by CNG and the Unionists.

3) It gave a legal guarantee to the right of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, as expressed in a plebscite, to remain part of the United Kingdom.

3) It transferred several thousands of Irish citizens in County Donegal to Northern Ireland.
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  #505  
Old September 14th, 2010, 07:52 PM
pipisme pipisme is offline
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In OTL and this TL elected Sinn Fein representatives did not take up their seats in the Dail Eireann because that would have meant swearing the oath of allegiance to the British king. However Eamon de Valera wanted a way out of the Sinn Fein abstenionist policy.

At the Sinn Fein ard fheis (conference) in March 1926, de Valera proposed the following motion: (1)
Quote:
That once the admission oath of the 26-county and six-county assemblies is removed, it becomes a question not of principle but of policy whether or not Republican representatives should attend these assemblies.
An amendment was tabled
Quote:
to the effect that it was incompatible with the principles of Sinn Fein 'to send representatives into any usurping legislature set up by English law in Ireland.'
The amendment was carried by 254 votes to 177. In OTL it was carried by 223 votes to 218. In both OTL and this TL de Valera resigned as President of Sinn Fein the next day.

(1) The quotations are taken from Twentieth-Century Ireland: Nation and State by Dermot Keogh, Dublin: Gill & Macmillan Ltd, 1994.
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  #506  
Old September 16th, 2010, 07:41 PM
pipisme pipisme is offline
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The first meeting of the Council of Ireland was postponed until 3 March 1926, after the Northern Ireland general election on 23 February. The Council was boycotted by Sinn Fein and the Ulster Unionists.
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  #507  
Old September 18th, 2010, 05:20 PM
pipisme pipisme is offline
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The political representation on the Council of Ireland was as follows:

Progressive Unionists: 12
Cumann na nGaedheal (CNG) : 11
Irish Nationalists (from Northern Ireland): 6
Irish Labour Party: 2
Northern Ireland Labour Party: 2
Farmers' Party (from Irish Free State): 2
Independents: 5
----------------
Total: 40
---------------

The first item of business was choosing a President of the Council, who would serve for six years, but be elegible for re-election. The consensus of opinion was that it should be a person of distinction, independent of party allegiance, and supported by representatives from the Irish Free and from Northern Ireland. The practically unanimous choice was the poet, William Butler Yeats. He did not vote for himself. However he accepted the post of President.

The first meeting of the Council was in Dublin. The Councillors agreed that they would sit for alternate six months in Dublin and Belfast, with the first six months being in Dublin.

On 13 April 1926, Eamon de Valera announced that he was setting up a new political party, Fianna Fail (Soldiers of Destiny). This was the same as in OTL.

Also as in OTL, William Cosgrave called an election for the Dail for 9 June 1927. The number of seats had been increased from 153 to 161 because of the areas added to the Free State by the Anglo-Irish agreement of December 1925. The number of seats obtained by each party and independents were as follows:

CNG: 55
Fianna Fail: 41
Labour: 26
Farmers' Party: 10
National League: 7
Sinn Fein: 6
Independents: 15
Speaker: 1
----------------
Total: 161
--------------

The National League had been founded in 1926 by William Redmond (a son of John Redmond) and was to the right of CNG.
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  #508  
Old September 19th, 2010, 06:05 PM
pipisme pipisme is offline
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When the new Dail assembled on 23 June 1927 the clerk of the Dail showed the Fianna Fail deputies into a room. He told them that before they could take their places in the chamber they must take the oath of allegiance to King George V. This they refused to do. Eamon de Valera attempted to enter the chamber but could not because the door was locked.

Following criticism in the Irish Press of the Fianna Fail attempt to enter the Dail, de Valera announced a nationwide campaign to force the government to submit the question of the oath to a referendum under article 48 of the Free State constitution. 75,000 signatures on petitions were required for a referendum to take place.

In OTL there was no referendum because on 10 July 1927 Kevin O'Higgins, the Vice-President and Minister of Home Affairs was shot dead. He was unarmed and did not have a bodyguard. In this TL he was not killed and there was no attempt on his life.

The following quotation is taken from Twentieth Century Ireland: Nation and State by Dermot Keogh, Dublin: Gill & Macmillan Ltd, 1994:
Quote:
[O'Higgins'] attackers were IRA men who happened to see him while they were on their way by car to a GAA [Gaelic Athletic Association] game in Wexford. Apparently the attack was not premeditated. It was simply unlucky for O'Higgins that his murderers had happened to find him alone.
Meanwhile the Cumann na nGaedhael government, under William Cosgrave, remained in office.

Last edited by pipisme; September 23rd, 2010 at 06:35 PM..
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  #509  
Old September 23rd, 2010, 06:46 PM
pipisme pipisme is offline
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Fianna Fail obtained the necessary 75,000 signatures for a referendum on the Oath of Allegiance which was part of the Anglo-Irish Treaty signed in December 1921 and in 1922 incorporated in the constitution of the Irish Free State. The Oath was as follows:
Quote:
I...do solemnly swear true faith and allegiance to the constitution of the Irish Free State as by law established, and that I will be faithful to H.M. King George, his heirs and successors by law in virtue of the common citizenship of Ireland with Great Britain, and her adherence to and membership of the group of nations forming the British Commonwealth of nations.
In the referendum campaign the argument of Fianna Fail (FF) and Sinn Fein was that the Oath forced Irishmen and women to pledge allegiance to the British monarch - a foreign ruler. The ruling CNG Party campaigned against the referendum as being a partisan measure by FF against the constitution which had been agreed by a majority of Dail in 1922, including Michael Collins. It was a crude attempt by FF to reignite the passions which lead to the Civil War. The Oath could only be removed as part of an amendment of the constitution. Because the Oath was supported by Irish people of the Unionist tradition, its removal would be divisive and would damage relations with the North and the eventual unification of the island of Ireland.

The Labour Party position was the the referendum was irrelevant to the social and economic problems of the country. It advocated abstention.

The referendum was held on 7 September 1927. The result was 41.4% for abolishing the oath, 58.6% against abolition. The turnout was 62.9%.

Even if the referendum had passed it would have become operative only if it received the support of at least 75% of the those voting, or over 50% of eligible voters.

Last edited by pipisme; September 24th, 2010 at 03:36 PM.. Reason: Major rewrite. Basically to change result of referendum from victory for abolishing the Oath of Allegiance to defeat.
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  #510  
Old September 23rd, 2010, 10:13 PM
stevep stevep is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipisme View Post
Fianna Fail obtained the necessary 75,000 signatures for a referendum on the oath of allegiance. The referendum was held on 7 September 1927. The result was 51.4% for abolishing the oath, 48.6% against abolition. The turnout was 72.9%.
pipisme

Just to clarify. Basically the result of the referendum is that the Irish voters have voted to ditch the deal? Since I can't see London, let alone Belfast let them get away with having their cake and eating it by taking only the parts they want from the agreement.

Steve
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  #511  
Old September 24th, 2010, 03:44 PM
pipisme pipisme is offline
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Steve

I have rewritten and expanded my previous message.

The Oath of Allegiance was part of the Anglo-Irish Treaty of December 1921 and the Constitution of the Irish Free State which was enacted in 1922 in OTL. It was not part of the Anglo-Irish Agreement of December 1925 in this TL.

I have amended the result of the referendum so that it was defeated.

pipisme
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  #512  
Old September 24th, 2010, 05:09 PM
stevep stevep is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipisme View Post
Steve

I have rewritten and expanded my previous message.

The Oath of Allegiance was part of the Anglo-Irish Treaty of December 1921 and the Constitution of the Irish Free State which was enacted in 1922 in OTL. It was not part of the Anglo-Irish Agreement of December 1925 in this TL.

I have amended the result of the referendum so that it was defeated.

pipisme
pipisme

OK, thanks for clarifying. I was thinking it was part of the agreement but as you said it was from before that.

Question is what does de Valera and his gang do now? Stand by their 'principles' and be excluded, which raises the possibility of losing support or change their stance and confirm?

The fact the Republic voted in favour of no changes should help alleviate concerns in the north a bit.

Steve
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  #513  
Old September 25th, 2010, 03:10 PM
pipisme pipisme is offline
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On 12 September de Valera convened a meeting of the executive of Fianna Fail and explained to them that the only alternatives were giving up political action or entering the Dail, which would mean taking the oath. A resolution was passed by forty-four votes to seven which left to each Fianna Fail TD (Teachta Dala - Deputy to the Dail) the decision to enter or not enter the Dail.

The next evening Fianna Fail TDs met for a (1)
Quote:
long, heart-searching meeting which lasted until midnight .
De Valera did not speak but got what he wanted - the signature of the thiry-nine TDs present to a statement for the press.

To summarise, this statement said that the Fianna Fail TDs would not allow themselves to be debarred by nothing more than an empty formula from exercising their functions as public representatives. They intend therefore to sign their names to the book containing the Oath. But they hereby give public notice that they regard their signatures as an empty formality and that their only allegiance is to the Irish nation. (2)

Quote:
de Valera wrestled with his conscience, and de Valera won.
The nest day (14 September), de Valera went to the Dail and presented himself to the officiating clerk. He read out a speech in Irish in which he said that wanted the clerk to understand that he was not taking an oath, but merely signing his name as a mere formality to get the permission necessary to enter the Dail. Then he signed his name in the book contating the Oath, covering the wording with papers he had brought with him. (3)

The other Fianna Fail TDs also signed the oath and thus took their seats in the Dail.

(1) The quotations are taken from De Valera: Long Fellow, Long Shadow by Tim Pat Coogan, Random House, 1993.

(2) This is a summary of a press statement which was issued by Fianna Fail in August 1927 in OTL.

(3) This happened in August 1927 in OTL.
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  #514  
Old September 27th, 2010, 11:10 AM
pipisme pipisme is offline
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The entry of Fianna Fail into the Dail meant that theoretically a combination of that party, Labour, the Farmers' Party, the National League would have 84 out of 161 seats and therefore a majority.

The Farmers' Party (FP) represented the interests of farmers - in particular the big farmers of the east and south who supported free trade, rather than the protectionist small farmers of the west. That meant that the FP deputies generally sided with the Cumann na nGaedhael (CNG) gocernment.

On 27 September 1927 Fianna Fail tabled a motion of no confidence in the government. This was defeated by 80 votes to 73. The breakdown of the result is as follows:

For the motion:

Fianna Fail: 41
Labour: 26
National League: 6
------------------
Total: 73
----------------

Against the motion:

CNG: 56
Farmers': 10
National League: 1
Independents: 13
-----------------
Total: 80
-----------------

Since the general election in June CNG had gained a seat in Dublin, South from Fianna Fail in a by-election on 24 August, and Daniel Corkery an independent deputy had joined Fianna Fail. Both as in OTL.

Unlike OTL there is not a second general election in 1927.
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  #515  
Old September 30th, 2010, 07:43 PM
pipisme pipisme is offline
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In the Irish Free State the Cumann na nGaedhael (CNG) government remained in power with William Cosgrave as President of the Executive Council. Its policies were similar to those in OTL. The years from 1928 to 1932 saw a steady rise in the popularity of the Labour Party which competed with Fianna Fail (FF) for the left of centre vote.

A general election was held on 1 June 1932, which was very close to the latest possible date. The number of seats obtained by each party and by independents in the Dail were as follows (9 June 1927 in brackets):

CNG: 52 (55)
Labour: 49 (26)
FF: 45 (41)
Independents: 11 (15)
Farmers' Party: 3 (10)
Speaker: 1 (1)
National League: 0 (7)
Sinn Fein: 0 (6)
----------------
Total: 161 (161)
-----------------

Last edited by pipisme; September 30th, 2010 at 08:05 PM.. Reason: To change month of and make minor amendments to result of 1932 general election
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  #516  
Old September 30th, 2010, 09:06 PM
Alratan Alratan is offline
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If Labour with Fiana Fail is competing for the centre left vote, why do both of them increase their representation?
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  #517  
Old September 30th, 2010, 09:43 PM
stevep stevep is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alratan View Post
If Labour with Fiana Fail is competing for the centre left vote, why do both of them increase their representation?
Alratan

Two possibilities come to mind. A general swing to the left and also possibly the smaller parties get squeezed out as people feel they need to vote for one of the big three for their vote to count. Also if feeling is hardening, with some supporting Fiana Fail's militant line and others unhappy with the government but also concerned about Fiana Fail position so could have a measure of tactical voting to try and keep the party they hate most out.

It makes for an interesting, not to mention possibly unstable, situation with the three main parties manoeuvring for power. I think the key question is whether Labour sides with Fiana Fail or Cumann na nGaedhael?

Steve
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  #518  
Old October 2nd, 2010, 01:17 PM
pipisme pipisme is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alratan
If Labour with Fianna Fail is competing for the left of centre vote, why do both of them increase their representation?
When comparing the Fianna Fail (FF) representation after the general election of 1932 compared with after the 1927 general election, the six Sinn Fein and two independent deputies should be added to the 41 FF deputies, as they both appealed to the same ideological/political constituency. Though only one independent took his seat in the Dail and he joined FF. So the FF representation after the 1932 election was 45 compared to the equivalent of 49 after the 1927 election.

To the Cumann na nGaedheal (CNG) representation of 55 after the 1927 general election should be added 10 Farmers' Party, 7 National League and 13 independents who were also right of centre to right wing, making a total of 85. The CNG representation after the 1932 election was in effect 52 plus 3 Farmers' Party plus 10 independents making a total of 65. The other independent out of a total of eleven elected was Jim Larkin who was elected as Independent Labour in Dublin, North.

After the 1927 general election there was a steady trickle of defections from the Farmers' Party and the National League to CNG. The National League disbanded when William Redmond, the leader of the National League crossed over to CNG in 1931. Redmond was the son of John Redmond. He died on 17 April 1932. His wife, Bridget Redmond, was elected CNG deputy for Waterford in the 1932 general election. (1)

(1) This was the same as regards William Redmond and the National League disbanding in 1931 in OTL. Bridget Redmond was elected as CNG deputy for Waterford in the January 1933 general election.
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  #519  
Old October 5th, 2010, 10:39 AM
pipisme pipisme is offline
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Coalition government forming in the Irish Free State

Because Cumann na nGaedheal (CNG) was the largest party in the Dail after the general election on 1 June 1932 it had the right to have the first choice at forming a coalition government with Labour. CNG had 52 seats in the Dail, compared to 45 for Fianna Fail.

Representatives of the two parties met on 2 June. The CNG representatives were William Cosgrave, the President of the Executive Council; Kevin O' Higgins, the Vice President and Minister for Justice; and Patrick McGilligan, the Minister for External Affairs. The Labour Party was represented by its leader, Thomas Johnson, and by William Norton and Thomas O'Connell.

Arguments in favour of a CNG/Labour coalition were (not in any order of importance):

1) In 1922 both parties supported the Anglo-Irish Treaty signed in December 1920 in OTL, and the Anglo-Irish Agreement signed in December 1925 in this TL. Both of which were opposed at the time by the Sinn Fein predecessors of Fianna Fail (FF) and later by FF.

2) In a much quoted remark Sean Lemass, a leading member of FF, said in 1928 that it was "slightly constitutional". Behind FF lurked the shadow of the gunman.

3) While all three main parties were socially conservative and committed to the moral teachings of the Catholic Church, CNG and Labour were relatively liberal compared to FF. The Cosgrave government did not ban the importation of contraceptives. (1) In September 1927:
Quote:
Fianna Fail condemned Cumann na nGaedheal's alleged indulgence of 'immoral publications', demanded even more rigorous censorship, and fumed against the immorality of the rest of mankind whom a misguided God had been so careless as to create beyond the holy grounds.
Irish Independent, 12 September 1927. Quoted in Ireland 1912-1985: Politics and Society J.J. Lee, Cambridge University Press, 1989.

4) CNG and Labour were more open to the outside world than FF. This was shown to some extent by their much greater support by Protestants, and in the areas transferred from Northern Ireland in the Anglo-Irish agreement. In the city of Derry, Labour had polled 41.9% of the first preference votes, with CNG in second place.

5) CNG needed to woo Labour. If the talks failed Labour would negotiate with FF.

(1) In OTL, the FF government of Eamon de Valera banned the importation of contraceptives in 1935.
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  #520  
Old October 8th, 2010, 06:31 PM
pipisme pipisme is offline
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Coalition government forming in the Irish Free State

There were reasons of economic policy and political advantage for Labour to go into coalition with Fianna Fail rather than Cumann na nGaedheal (CNG).

There were major differences between Labour and CNG on economic policy.

The CNG government had cut old age pensions and in a supplementary budget in early November 1931 reduced the wages of teachers and the gardai (police force), and increased petrol tax and income tax.

In the coalition negotiations the Labour party wanted the introduction of a maintenance scheme for the 80,000 unemployed, the building of 40,000 houses, a pension scheme for widows and orphans, the reorganisation of the transport industry and measures against profiteering in the flour-milling industry.

If Labour formed a coalition with Fianna Fail they would be the largest party and take the Presidency of the Executive Council. In a coalition with CNG, that party would be the largest and Cosgrave would continue to be President of the Executive Council.
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