Canadian MAD

[Captain2]

I'm currently in the process of playing a game with a great bunch of guys, however they've created a scenario where even I as a Canadian would be unsure how we would react.

In this timeline Four Nukes have been dropped; the Historical two on Japan, One on a Yugoslavian harbour and just recently a nuke was dropped on a German research base in Antarctica after the Krauts shot up some Soviets.

Naturally the only nations nuked are those themselves without nukes, would Canadians accept this as a good enough reason to get a nuclear program or would the historical reservations exist?

P.S. The Year is 1954, The Prime Minister of Canada is Lester B. Pearson who has been elected a little early as a result of earlier Conservative party victories followed by mistakes

[MacCaulay]

Originally Posted by Captain2

Naturally the only nations nuked are those themselves without nukes, would Canadians accept this as a good enough reason to get a nuclear program or would the historical reservations exist?

P.S. The Year is 1954, The Prime Minister of Canada is Lester B. Pearson who has been elected a little early as a result of earlier Conservative party victories followed by mistakes

I thought he was really into internationalism. I mean, Les Pearson practically invented Blue Helmets.

It's not like Canada doesn't have a history of nuclear weapons on it's soil. It's been oft pointed out that the Avro Arrow was dumped for the...(cold shiver, compressing rage)...BOMARC Nuclear Anti-Aircraft Missile.

Possibly the dumbest idea that was ever pitched. It drove the Diefenbaker government six feet under, and for good reason. I don't think the Canadians would ever actually get a nuclear program. But the fact is, they don't need them. They didn't seem to have a problem with getting them from America until the mid-60s.

The BOMARCs, the nuclear depth charges the Navy had, they've got a long and sordid history with them.

I don't know quite what the boundaries are of the game, but what Canada did do was develop the DEW line of early warning stations with the USAF, the forerunner and actual backbone of NORAD. These gaurded Canada from an attack over the pole by placing radar stations along the northern border.
But apart from investing possibly a little more heavily in interceptors (they loved that CF-101 Voodoo), and possibly seeing the Arrow program saved, I don't see any big changes. Even with two more nukes on the table.

In my opinion.

[Coyote Knight]

With Pearson at the helm, it's almost guaranteed that on top of brokering peacekeeping deals, he would've attempted to broker a nuclear non-proliferation type agreement. Canada wouldn't get any. We'd just want people to stop using theirs and get rid of them.

[pieman3141]

Originally Posted by MacCaulay

I thought he was really into internationalism. I mean, Les Pearson practically invented Blue Helmets.

It's not like Canada doesn't have a history of nuclear weapons on it's soil. It's been oft pointed out that the Avro Arrow was dumped for the...(cold shiver, compressing rage)...BOMARC Nuclear Anti-Aircraft Missile.

Possibly the dumbest idea that was ever pitched. It drove the Diefenbaker government six feet under, and for good reason. I don't think the Canadians would ever actually get a nuclear program. But the fact is, they don't need them. They didn't seem to have a problem with getting them from America until the mid-60s.

The BOMARCs, the nuclear depth charges the Navy had, they've got a long and sordid history with them.

I don't know quite what the boundaries are of the game, but what Canada did do was develop the DEW line of early warning stations with the USAF, the forerunner and actual backbone of NORAD. These gaurded Canada from an attack over the pole by placing radar stations along the northern border.
But apart from investing possibly a little more heavily in interceptors (they loved that CF-101 Voodoo), and possibly seeing the Arrow program saved, I don't see any big changes. Even with two more nukes on the table.

In my opinion.

Worst thing the Diefenbaker government did. Hell, had I lived in the 1950s, I would've voted Conservatives (I refuse to do so now).

Actually, it goes further. Know the philosopher George Grant? Wrote Lament For A Nation. I specifically used the example of the Avro Arrow as a rebuttal against Grant's opinion that technology couldn't have saved Canada/Canadian identity. The Arrow was, IMO, the last gasp that Canada had towards maintaining an independent entity. Alas.

Well, that's enough about the Arrow. Fuckers. *mumbles about Arrow even more*

[MacCaulay]

Originally Posted by pieman3141

Worst thing the Diefenbaker government did. Hell, had I lived in the 1950s, I would've voted Conservatives (I refuse to do so now).

Actually, it goes further. Know the philosopher George Grant? Wrote Lament For A Nation. I specifically used the example of the Avro Arrow as a rebuttal against Grant's opinion that technology couldn't have saved Canada/Canadian identity. The Arrow was, IMO, the last gasp that Canada had towards maintaining an independent entity. Alas.

Well, that's enough about the Arrow. Fuckers. *mumbles about Arrow even more*

Dude, they could make a freaking book out of the rants that have gone on in this Board about combined stupidity behind the loss of the Arrow, adoption of the BOMARC, and the general stupidity of the Diefenbaker government.

Posts and posts and threads and threads...believe me: when you're missing the Arrow on this board, you're preaching to the choir.

[Coyote Knight]

Originally Posted by MacCaulay

Dude, they could make a freaking book out of the rants that have gone on in this Board about combined stupidity behind the loss of the Arrow, adoption of the BOMARC, and the general stupidity of the Diefenbaker government.

Posts and posts and threads and threads...believe me: when you're missing the Arrow on this board, you're preaching to the choir.

True enough. I'd love for there to be a resurgence and for Canada to redevelop a "Made in Canada" fighter jet.

[MacCaulay]

Originally Posted by Canadian Federation

True enough. I'd love for there to be a resurgence and for Canada to redevelop a "Made in Canada" fighter jet.

That's a challenge. They had the Tutor, they made the Canadair Sabre under license, but their version was actually significantly modified.

But the problem was that when the Arrow shut down, everyone left to go to NASA. There were ex-Arrow engineers involved with Gemini, Apollo, and the Space Shuttle.

[fortyseven]

@OP: Possibly no Partial Test ban Treaty and a Successful Project Orion?



A continued Arrow program could have led to all kinds of fun stuff like world class fighter jets and a earlier Canadian Space Agency with an air launched space program.

[Coyote Knight]

Originally Posted by MacCaulay

That's a challenge. They had the Tutor, they made the Canadair Sabre under license, but their version was actually significantly modified.

But the problem was that when the Arrow shut down, everyone left to go to NASA. There were ex-Arrow engineers involved with Gemini, Apollo, and the Space Shuttle.

Which gives me an idea for an alt timeline...What if Canada kept the Arrow and the workers? Would we be the ones leading the space race against the Commies?

[TheMann]

Originally Posted by Canadian Federation

Which gives me an idea for an alt timeline...What if Canada kept the Arrow and the workers? Would we be the ones leading the space race against the Commies?

Canada doesn't have the budget to really compete with the Russians.

I did a TL with the Arrow once before, with it service the CF until 1988, upgraded several times, and a world-class replacement built as a first-class fighter in the mid-late 1970s.

And yes, Diefenbaker is probably most hated for that decision. BOMARC missiles? (Whose f*cking idea was that...... )

[Readman]

There was done a Avro Arrow TL, IIRC. Vancouver got nuked in the early '90's

[Coyote Knight]

In my timeline, the CF-24 Wolf is a collaboration between Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Bombardier. It is followed in the future(following Canada's newfound status as an energy/economic superpower) by a combined project between Bombardier and Lockheed Martin to essentially redevelop the Avro Arrow, but with modern technology and design applied.

[MacCaulay]

Originally Posted by Canadian Federation

In my timeline, the CF-24 Wolf is a collaboration between Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Bombardier. It is followed in the future(following Canada's newfound status as an energy/economic superpower) by a combined project between Bombardier and Lockheed Martin to essentially redevelop the Avro Arrow, but with modern technology and design applied.

Yeah? Well in mine...they just use the Hornet. And the character's American, anyway. Damn.

By the way, I think Bombardier's practically running the NATO flying school in Canada now. That's got to be a good thing for business.

[Coyote Knight]

Originally Posted by MacCaulay

Yeah? Well in mine...they just use the Hornet. And the character's American, anyway. Damn.

By the way, I think Bombardier's practically running the NATO flying school in Canada now. That's got to be a good thing for business.

Still a great timeline though.