Portuguese spain instead of Castillian spain,how possible is this situation to happen.
Portuguese spain instead of Castillian spain
- Thread starter kasumigenx
- Start date
Alex Richards
Donor
The only possible way for Iberia to be Portuguese in culture is to somehow (probably ASB) make Portugal the only counrty in the reconquista.
I really meant to say is that is it possible for Portuguese Culture to be dominant in spain with Castillans as a minority.
I think Catalonia and Occitania will have their own single state in this timeline.
OTL, Castillian, Catalonian and Portuguese were the three main languages (language groupings) in Christian Iberia (well, and Basque). Castillian won out more due to it being the language of the court than anything else, I believe.
Portugal and Leon could be united under a Portuguese king/court, and then that kingdom could be the one that unites (most of) the peninsula.
The language that resulted might be quite different from OTL Portuguese, but be based that rather than OTL's Castillian.
No. Castillian won because of pre-industial demographics. That made it the language of the court, not the other way aroud. In fact Galician (an early Portuguese) was the poets language in the Castillan court almost until the unification itself. Many nations had French as a court language for centuries, and yet they did not adopt french.
Portugal and Aragon were maritime, commercial kimdoms centered around its seaports (Lisbon, Porto, Barcelona, Valencia). Castille was made of huge river valleys than grew loads of grain and sheeps -and grain and woold were in fact two of pre-industrial Europe mayor industries. It did not have many mayor cities, but had dozens of small ones. Castille had the other four nations (Aragon, Portugal, Navarre and Granada) beat both by wealth and population -it may even beat all four of then together.
It wasnt until the industrial age when demographics changed in Europe, and wealth moved from wool and agriculture in the country to the industrialiced areas around the cities, and great industrial centers developed from minor towns (Manchester, Bilbao). But by then Spanish was the Castillian language, and Catalonian, Galician and Basque were on the wane (while Catalonian managed to survive with some health, until the advent of democracy in 1978, and the establishment of bilingual education on those regions than restored their ancestral tongues, Galician and Basque had turned into insolated rural languages than had probably a couple generations left)
Wheter Spain is ruled from Castille, Aragon or Portugal, a Castillenizacion in a couple centuries is almost unavoidable, unles you get a completely radical POD in, say, the War of the Spanish sucession or the Napoleonic wars. Until well into the 18th century, european nations did not have even the concept of an "official language", and all nations had quite a few regional tongues.
"Ch" is the affricate /ʧ/ in OTL Castilian Spanish. So yes! 
Since Jews were always second-class sujects in Christian Spain, would their language have really affected the mainstream all that much?
I've been mentally playing for a while with the idea of a completely hybridized Spanish-Andalusian culture. The language there, if related to Spanish, would likely have more influence from Judeo-Espanyol, not to mention Arabic.
Since Jews were always second-class sujects in Christian Spain, would their language have really affected the mainstream all that much?
I've been mentally playing for a while with the idea of a completely hybridized Spanish-Andalusian culture. The language there, if related to Spanish, would likely have more influence from Judeo-Espanyol, not to mention Arabic.
"Ch" is the affricate /ʧ/ in OTL Castilian Spanish. So yes!
Well, in Portuguese "ch" sounds more, well, French-like - hence the question.
Well, since they helped to elevate the status of Spanish (okay, Old Spanish - but still) pre-1492 in OTL, I would hope something similar could happen in TTL - after all, the King of Portugal was pretty lenient on the Jews.
I would love to see the end result.
Susano
Banned
But those language groupings are all within the Romance group and blur at the edges in a dialect continuum, wouldnt they? So, if Portugal is politically stronger, might some dialects now considered Castillian (like Extrenmeduran, which is after all even often considered an own language) be considered Portuguese dialects in such a TL, thusly strengthening Portuguese? Orare the lingual differences too large?
As I understand it (shaky ground already) the initial stages of the reconquesta were more of a reoccupation of uncontested land north of Al Andalus. A neutral zone as it were. What if it is repopulated by Portuguese speakers that take to farming grain and sheep (Merino from north Africa say). Might this not snowball into a wealthier and more populous Portugal that cuts Galicia, Leon and Castille from punching south? Aragon could still help the reconquesta along the east coast leaving Portugal to pick up the valuable plains inland and finally Cadiz, Gibraltar and the majority of the south coast.
Yeah, but Castille gained the inland arable land and wealth, whereas Aragon didn't so much. Portugal must be the dominant partner for this to work.
Not necessarily.
In such a case, a fused Portuguese-Castilian language could work. Let me think about it tonight, then I can get to work tomorrow. Be warned, though - it may have traces of Galician in it, as is andaluz and djudeo-espanyol.Maybe it's enough if Portuguese language and culture is like 40% of the population, and Castillian, Basque, Catalan and a more distinct Andalusian and Aragones the other 60%?
Portuguese could absorb Galician too...
opposite would be easier. Seriously, Galicia is not part of Portugal and has never been. If you want Galicia being portuguese speaking, you need first to make Portugal the dominance power of that hipotetical Spain. You can´t unite Portugal and Galicia and then make that the dominance power of Spain. If you do that, you need a POD that could make Galician the dominat language of Spain, not portuguese.
Galicia and Portugal used to share a single language named Galician-Portuguese http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galician-Portuguese
One of the feasible ways to achieve some kind of Portuguese influence over the whole peninsula, would be, in my opinion:
Galicia and Portugal (at the time just a county in today's modern Portugal) stay as the same kingdom. Dinastic politics help put Leon in Galician(-Portuguese) hands, and later on also Castille, while the increased strength of Galicia(-Portugal) means more territory conquered in the south relatively to the other nations involved in the Reconquista.
Linguistically, it is difficult to achieve a complete superiority of TTL *Galician(-Portuguese), for demographic reasons, although with a POD early enough, an interesting combination of Galician(-Portuguese) with TTL Leonese, Castillian (and maybe Catalan or Aragonese) elements (depending on the way things evolve) could appear as the official language.
Galicia and Portugal (at the time just a county in today's modern Portugal) stay as the same kingdom. Dinastic politics help put Leon in Galician(-Portuguese) hands, and later on also Castille, while the increased strength of Galicia(-Portugal) means more territory conquered in the south relatively to the other nations involved in the Reconquista.
Linguistically, it is difficult to achieve a complete superiority of TTL *Galician(-Portuguese), for demographic reasons, although with a POD early enough, an interesting combination of Galician(-Portuguese) with TTL Leonese, Castillian (and maybe Catalan or Aragonese) elements (depending on the way things evolve) could appear as the official language.
*TTL Galician(-Portuguese) must be understood as an equivalente to modern day Portuguese with a very strong influence from the Galician dialectal group - like having a more northern accented standard Portuguese in spelling and writing (something resembling one of the blue-labeled accents here, even if the capital ends much more to the south (either in OTL Portugal or Spain) like the future economic and demographic trends will demand, most likely resulting in a modern-day standard that would look like Transmontano (light-blue in the map) with heavy loans from Leonese, Castillian, Arabic, etc.
I hope this helps.
It can also end like modern portuguese with sh and zh without dj and ch because the Seville area and the areas near portugal use [ʃ] as ch like the portuguese do.One of the feasible ways to achieve some kind of Portuguese influence over the whole peninsula, would be, in my opinion:
Galicia and Portugal (at the time just a county in today's modern Portugal) stay as the same kingdom. Dinastic politics help put Leon in Galician(-Portuguese) hands, and later on also Castille, while the increased strength of Galicia(-Portugal) means more territory conquered in the south relatively to the other nations involved in the Reconquista.
Linguistically, it is difficult to achieve a complete superiority of TTL *Galician(-Portuguese), for demographic reasons, although with a POD early enough, an interesting combination of Galician(-Portuguese) with TTL Leonese, Castillian (and maybe Catalan or Aragonese) elements (depending on the way things evolve) could appear as the official language.
*TTL Galician(-Portuguese) must be understood as an equivalente to modern day Portuguese with a very strong influence from the Galician dialectal group - like having a more northern accented standard Portuguese in spelling and writing (something resembling one of the blue-labeled accents here, even if the capital ends much more to the south (either in OTL Portugal or Spain) like the future economic and demographic trends will demand, most likely resulting in a modern-day standard that would look like Transmontano (light-blue in the map) with heavy loans from Leonese, Castillian, Arabic, etc.
I hope this helps.