Peshawar Lancers Redux: North America

[chris N]

The are a number of places that migh fit the bill -Cheyenne is the first that comes to mind and other possibilities would be Omaha,Nebraska, St Louis , Missouri, Denver, Colorado, Chicago, Illinois.

[Shadow Knight]

Originally Posted by Bozo

Well problem is I have no idea what the infrastructure would be like in the area of the united states edison saw in late july. Due to his work ethic I dont see him sitting around so to make it believeable, i would need a town or city between wyoming and new jersey, on or near the rail network with a good hospital., so that the result would be something along the lines of this:

".. it was in late 1878, while travelling back from seeing the solar eclipse that mama felt ill. Papa was concerned and with willie not due for some months, we left the train in Philediphia. We would stay with mamma, while once papa had us settled he would journey on home. Before he left, he took me to see Ben franklins house on a bright october morning. We had just left when the world changed...." extract from Childhoods End by Marion "Dot" Edison Taylor, VP of GE (1911-1915)

On one of the earlier pages in this thread I posted two maps of the rail system of the US in 1870 and 1880 that should help if you wanted.

Originally Posted by chris N

The are a number of places that migh fit the bill -Cheyenne is the first that comes to mind and other possibilities would be Omaha,Nebraska, St Louis , Missouri, Denver, Colorado, Chicago, Illinois.

It would be a little too convenient methinks if they were in St. Louis.

[Claudius]

One of the characteristics of the PL universe has is that it is technologically much less advanced than our own. Partly that is because of the immense loss of life, infrastructure and territory. But part of it is also loss of key personnel. In PL, the politician Gladstone is dead and Disraeli alive because Gladstone was in Liverpool on October 3, 1878 and Diraeli wasn't. Chances are technologists like Alexander Graham Bell would be nice to have around too, but again he was living in Cambridge, Massachusetts in 1878 (having just returned from a year in Europe. I know I violated the general principal by bringing in T.R., but I don't think it's a good idea to hand-wave every character we want out of the killing zone just because we can.

[OneUp]

Should we compile a death-list of awesome people that will make us cry? Ah for the want of the genius of Tesla and Einstein!

[chris N]

While Bell may have died the ideas that he had were still around. His assistant might have survived and perhaps there would be enough documents around as to allow someone to follow in his footsteps.

[Claudius]

Possibly. Besides Edison and Bell, pschologist William James, and (add to the list...) The other thing is that the radically changed circumstances of the post-Fall world will alter or even prevent some who were brilliant IOTL from acheiving greatness. NIkola Tesla had dropped out of University and disappeared into Slovenia in the late 1870's Charles Steinmetz, who developed the technology of AC electricity, would never have gotten a university education etc. Even if they survive, the political upheavals and poverty of the TL will limit many to a struggle to stay alive.

[superkuf]

Originally Posted by Claudius

Possibly. Besides Edison and Bell, pschologist William James, and (add to the list...) The other thing is that the radically changed circumstances of the post-Fall world will alter or even prevent some who were brilliant IOTL from acheiving greatness. NIkola Tesla had dropped out of University and disappeared into Slovenia in the late 1870's Charles Steinmetz, who developed the technology of AC electricity, would never have gotten a university education etc. Even if they survive, the political upheavals and poverty of the TL will limit many to a struggle to stay alive.

Indeed. The potential for new inventions and research post Fall are zero. All energy goes to survival (in many forms - both cold, disease, hunger and internal violence have been described earlier in the scenario, and full scale war seems imminent) and maybe rebuilding some of what is lost. Basic research won't be funded before year 1900. And a lot of the problems science are supposed to solve won't be around this time. The book Peshawar Lanciers described in several pieces both that the generation directly after the Fall was permanently shellshocked and how different from OTL "the great men" had ended up. Kipling wrote mainly about a lost England, not "east of Suez".

That Germany, the birthplace of the modern university and higher education, was bombarded with space debris to death, would have great implications for all science and research post-Fall. That was one of Sterlings explenations for the rather low technical base of the Empire - their scientists were still generalists in victorian tradition.

[chris N]

Based upon what I have just read it would appear that even if Mr Bell had died there would have been a telephone available. Mow I do believe that the Fall would have slowed down the advance of the telephone and other technology. The automobile would probably not make is presence felt for 20 or more years before it first appeared.

It is highly likely that most advances might be in improvements to existing means of communication and transportation. Thus the US might have seen more rail transportation and improvements regarding locomotives. The development of Electric power would have also seen the use of the trolley as a means of transportation. It is possible that the military ght has spurred the development of the oil fired engine for warships as that would allow the ships to travel futher abd at a higher rate of speed.

[chris N]

There are two US Army officers that may play an important role in this time period- Colonel Randal S Mackenzie, who at the time of the Fall was commanding officer of the 4th US Cavalry in West Texas. He had served as a Major General of Volunteers during the Civil War and had been highly regarded by General Grant. It was a fall from a wagon in 1818 which lead to problems which forced him to retire. Thus he would be the man to restor stability to the frontier . He was also someone who was to become the Military commander of the New Mexico Territory.

Colonel Nelson Miles was another figure that would play a leading role in the Indian wars. He was married to the niece of General Sherman and Senator Sherman. He eventually became the commander of the US Army during the Spanish American War. If given a mission he would not stop until it was accomplished regardless of cost.

[Claudius]

General Nelson A. MIles is already on the move...

[Ephraim Ben Raphael]

Technology is a big question for this timeline.

Will they end up less technologically advanced for the reasons Stirling gave (dead scientists, destruction of Germany etc.), or will it be ironically more advanced because of the chronic warfare that seems to have developed in many places after the Fall, and warfare tends to accelerate technological development?

We will certainly see more knowledge of astronomy (maybe more focus on space travel in the next century?) earlier than OTL as scientists try to better find a way to understand what happened to them. Maybe as wood becomes exhausted in the northern cities someone will invent the electric light as a way to shed light without consuming precious fuel needed for warmth? Perhaps someone will be trying to find away to connect telegraph lines without the wire that keeps being blown down and stumbles upon radio? People like Tesla and Bell might have been ahead of their time but they were not that far ahead. There are other scientists that could make the same discoveries not much later than they did.

Does this make sense? Am I just raving?

[chris N]

I believe that you have stumbled upon a great truth. That is that if there is a need for something then there will be an effort by someone to solve the problem. It would have been easier if Alexander Grham Bell had not died but there were people working on the same idea both in the US and else where in the world, including Italy. Thus it is likely that the invention would take place.

By this time many of the cities in the US were using gas to provide lighting.I do believe that the possible shift to oil might take place. earlier for ships and perhaps locomotives.

It is likely that the US military would totally integrate the machine gune into its units.

I also believe that war with Mexico is bound to happen much sooner than latter as realization that Diaz is an enemy of the US si in. Acting President Reed is going to learn that he an not allow foreign countries to build bases in the US.

The election of 1880 is going to have to take place and it will set the course for what direction the country will take. The report from the ship that has been exploring the east coast of North America will probably send shock waves throught the government. A realization will come that action will have to be taken.

[Claudius]

I think "it all depends." Scientific and technological progress is a complex thing that depends on not only the brilliant innovator, but the infrastructure that supports him. Edison, for example, came up with the modern research laboratory as a concept to enable him to maximize his gifts ( and make a fortune doing so.) Remove the social, financial and communications infrastructure and a surviving genius may not accomplish much. It has been noted elsewhere on this site that as advanced as ancient Rome was, so much of its technology was discarded in the changed circumstances of the Dark Ages that much had to re-nvented many centuries later. The brilliant 13th Century English monk Roger Bacon had a bent to technical innovation, but there was literally no way his society could utilize it

[Ephraim Ben Raphael]

But this is hardly an anti-technological 13th century society. Nations were in the process of industrializing before the Fall and the belief that science could accomplish many new things was already seated. I agree with chris N that they are likely to start using oil in steam engines soon, and hadn't steam powered Gatling guns already been invented?

Speaking of Mexico, is anyone considering the possibility that Mexico rather than the US might initiate the next Mexican/American War? After all most of the American industry in the north is gone and the government in St. Louis only controls a part of its territory. Maybe Porfirio will come to the conclusion that he, with the intact industry that he was building up before the Fall, a relatively unified nation, and a large army can take on the Americans. I think he would lose but it he might not think so.

[chris N]

Ah but the US is loaded with veterans of the American Civil War and Nothing would unite the country more than an attack on it by a foreign power. I have little doubt that a number of ex- Confederate officers would be more than willing to raise troops for the defense of the United States of America and the officers of the US Army and the former Confederate Army would have a lot of experience in fighting.

As for the lose of industrial capacity the US arsenal at Springfield Mass could be relocated to Kentucky. The US would still have the artillery mfgr plant located at West Point NY. There would also be stockpiles of weapons that would be available to arm an enlarged US Army. General Diaz may find that his grab for power has resulted in him grabbing a tiger by the tail. He may alos find that his army might melt away when it faces one that fights back.

[superkuf]

Originally Posted by Ephraim Ben Raphael

Technology is a big question for this timeline.

Will they end up less technologically advanced for the reasons Stirling gave (dead scientists, destruction of Germany etc.), or will it be ironically more advanced because of the chronic warfare that seems to have developed in many places after the Fall, and warfare tends to accelerate technological development?

We will certainly see more knowledge of astronomy (maybe more focus on space travel in the next century?) earlier than OTL as scientists try to better find a way to understand what happened to them. Maybe as wood becomes exhausted in the northern cities someone will invent the electric light as a way to shed light without consuming precious fuel needed for warmth? Perhaps someone will be trying to find away to connect telegraph lines without the wire that keeps being blown down and stumbles upon radio? People like Tesla and Bell might have been ahead of their time but they were not that far ahead. There are other scientists that could make the same discoveries not much later than they did.

Does this make sense? Am I just raving?

It is a very good and important question. Adding to the comments

1) There was a demand for safe and cheap indoor lightning since the Stone Age, but it was first when the oil industry (which was based on millennias of innovation) met late 19 century society and money that the oil lamp was spread - and soon the light bulb. Just because people need something it won't appear.

2) While invasions can lead to military research and plagues to medical research the Fall couldn't be "researched" (even by 2015 some considered better to be hit by Fall 2 instead of having advance warning) - therefore no research money.

3) The military establishment were, as a whole, against technological improvements. All those "magazine rifles only means that the soldiers shoot to much" and "we must use the old equiment that we have" arguments, or the anti-tank bias after WW1. The generals did reluctantly take the machineguns that were thrown upon them, but didn't ask for them. And since the researching and manufacturing establisment (which created the machineguns) largely have been drowned the military point of view will be even stronger.

4) To a large degree scientific progress depends upon scientist 1 that does something and write about it, sicentist 2 reads it, does something more and write about it and scientist 3 reads ... and then someone cleaves the atom. After the Fall scientist 1, 4, 16 and 21 are dead. And the papers that the surviving scientist could write in are out of buissness. And the government/funds/JP Morgan that paid the scientists have other things to spend their money on.

5) The wars seems to be mainly raids against low tech "hill bandits", not something that leads to technological advances. It was lately that great powers as the Raj fought against Dai-Nippon or France against the Calipahte. That lead to innovation (ironclads, airships, torpedoes, armoured cars etc), but that seems to be 1980-2000.

[Ephraim Ben Raphael]

Originally Posted by chris N

Ah but the US is loaded with veterans of the American Civil War and Nothing would unite the country more than an attack on it by a foreign power. I have little doubt that a number of ex- Confederate officers would be more than willing to raise troops for the defense of the United States of America and the officers of the US Army and the former Confederate Army would have a lot of experience in fighting.

As for the lose of industrial capacity the US arsenal at Springfield Mass could be relocated to Kentucky. The US would still have the artillery mfgr plant located at West Point NY. There would also be stockpiles of weapons that would be available to arm an enlarged US Army. General Diaz may find that his grab for power has resulted in him grabbing a tiger by the tail. He may alos find that his army might melt away when it faces one that fights back.

I think you are absolutely right, and a war with Meixco would unite the USA and crush Porfirio Diaz. But I'm saying that Daiz might believe he could win, especially considering that he thinks he can get away with a naval base near New Orleans and extending influence into the gulf coast and the Carribean.

[chris N]

Quite true. Much would depend upon how Diaz sees thing. It is quite likely that his view of the world may not be shaped by the rality of the situtation but by his view. He would not be the first Mexican Military office to misjudge the US.

[chris N]

For the US to remain united it is critical that contact with California be continued. To this end the US Government would need to make sure that it has total control of Arizona and New Mexico. Then it might be possible to establish a southern rail link to the "Golden State". California's gold and Food stuffs would help the nation survive the Fall. The Naval Shipyard there would also help with the reconstruction of the Navy.

[chris N]

The late General Grant had called upon two former confederate officers to assist him after the fall. They were Lt General James Longstreet, who along with Colonel John Mosby had become close personal friend with the late President and Republicans. An idea was to ask them to serve the government of the US. General Longstreet had already served as a diplomat and a government offical. He had now been asked to oversee the reconstruction of Virginia, especially the vital US Naval base and Shipyard there.