Peshawar Lancers Redux: North America

[Claudius]

Actually, military pressure from Russia should accelerate technological development. By the end of the CW, the south with no technological base to speak of had developed a functioning (if very unsafe) submarine, antipersonnel mines and a type of machine gun. It was just that their manufacturing base wouldn't support the inventions. The north came up with balloon observation posts, practical repeating rifles, improved bridge engineering, amphibeous warfare, etc.

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by Shadow Knight

I just assumed it was from earthquakes farther out to sea caused by the reverberations of the impacts on the other side of the planet. Much as you had the volcano eruption here in TTL.

I think here was might see a Japan that suffered some minor coastal damage mainly from those aforementioned earthquakes causing some tsunamis but that is about it (assume the same for much of coastal Asia).

Still Japan at this time was not even industrialized yet. It was on its way with European and American help, but that help is flat gone now. On the bright side it gives them time to catch up and transition at their own pace instead of breakneck speed. Will they be on the lookout for some quick gains, sure, maybe a much earlier (re-)attempt to move into Korea.

IMO, depending on how Japan was affected by the Fall, the temporary freezing would prompt the Japanese to move south, but it would be a slow process to conquer Korea and China.
The first Japanese interventions of moderate dimension were in mid 1870's (Taiwan 1874, Korea 1875–76) and the Yokosuka Naval Arsenal was still producing few modern warships in the 1870's.

[chris N]

I would totally agree military technology would progress and as a result other inventions would have moved society further along.

I did some checking regarding the Japanese. The Imperial Japanese Navy was formed in 1869. It consisted by 1880 of some 23 ships. Eleven of these could be considered "modern" while the other 12 were from provincial navies. None of the ships would be capable of challenging any first rate ship of the royal navy. It was in 1879 that a British citizen was hired to begin training the Imperial Japanese navy to Royal Navy standards. Japan had 2 ships being built in Scotland and with the fall happening they would probably be either sieze or abandoned. It would thus take the Japanese quite a bit longer to ild the modern ships that would be needed. Japan only exerted control of the Ryukyu Islands( Okinawa and its sister Islands ) in the mid to late 1870s.
Still Japan could attempt to begin its conquest by attacking Korea as China was in the midst of a Civil War that was only slowly drawing to a close..

Thus Spain, United States and Great Britain would have some chance to recover and reorganize.

Some Civil War era Monitors might not have been sold to foreign powers.Chile might very well be the major naval power of South America.

[MerryPrankster]

I just had a really evil thought.

Instead of cannibal satanist Russians, how about cannibal Japanese eating Koreans?

[Claudius]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

I just had a really evil thought.

Instead of cannibal satanist Russians, how about cannibal Japanese eating Koreans?

!!

Hmmm. Global cooling makes Siberia and Russian Far East uninhabitable, ditto northern Japanese islands, leading to earlier adventures by Japan in southerly direction. That sounds promising.

[chris N]

Yes, If the weather in Northern Japan is becpming a problem there would be pressure on the Japanese government to stike at an area where people cpould be relocated to. Since Formosa is controled by the weak Chinese Empire it would make a logical target. Oh a brief note there was a dispute between China and Japan over who had the better legal claim to the Okinanwa. The man who was chosen to arbitrate : US Grant who thought Japan had the better claim. This took place in the early 1870's.

[Claudius]

Grant was returning from his visit to Japan at the beginning of this TL

[chris N]

Thus the man who could have cemented better relations between Japan and the US in the crisis is dead but perhaps relatios might not be bad as a result of his decision. Still the US must begin to rebuild itself and its defences.

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by Claudius

!!

Hmmm. Global cooling makes Siberia and Russian Far East uninhabitable, ditto northern Japanese islands, leading to earlier adventures by Japan in southerly direction. That sounds promising.

If they do go cannibal, given Shinto's obsession with ritual cleanliness and all, they'd probably avoid certain parts like the intestines.

Perhaps the cannibal-Japanese who eat only the proper "cuts" of people look down on those who eat any part.

[Shadow Knight]

As interesting as the discussion of a possible cannibalistic Japan is, not that I believe that is what would occur in any organized fashion by-the-way, but to return to the NA situation which this thread is about. So are we going going to see more on the Canadians and those Americans in the Northeast that survived the Fall Claudius? I'm curious as to how the situation in Albany, Buffalo, etc. is.

[Claudius]

Japan isn't going cannibal. They are (and always have been) very good at catching fish.

North America is enough to handle, no argument there!

[Claudius]

Originally Posted by Shadow Knight

As interesting as the discussion of a possible cannibalistic Japan is, not that I believe that is what would occur in any organized fashion by-the-way, but to return to the NA situation which this thread is about. So are we going going to see more on the Canadians and those Americans in the Northeast that survived the Fall Claudius? I'm curious as to how the situation in Albany, Buffalo, etc. is.

Canada in 1880 had a population of roughly 4 million, most of whom lived in the eastern provinces, perhaps a hundred thousand or so in BC and in the northwest. outside of the cities, roads were unpaved and the Canadian Pacific Railroad was just being born. At that time, a Canadian bound for the west coast would make use of the US railroad system.

The Fall-generated tsunami hit the Maritimes, wiping out the fishing and shipping industries there although those living at higher elevations probably survived the initial impact. A surge up the St. Lawrence may have drowned parts of Montreal. Since the Fall, the Big Winter has taken its toll on the population in a similar fashion to the US. Perhaps half the population has died due to severe weather, hunger and disease. During 1879, Canadians began moving southwards, against some resistance. Geography would seem to indicate that the majority would cross the St. Lawrence River, or down Lake Champlain into central New York state. The mountains of Vermont and New Hampshire and the forests of Maine would be hard going for the refugees. The population of central New York is not that large and may find it difficult to stem the time of refugees without help from other states, Buffalo is a frozen wasteland like the other Great Lakes cities. Even in normal times, it has brutal winters. 1878-1880 would have been much worse.

[Shadow Knight]

Originally Posted by Claudius

Canada in 1880 had a population of roughly 4 million, most of whom lived in the eastern provinces, perhaps a hundred thousand or so in BC and in the northwest. outside of the cities, roads were unpaved and the Canadian Pacific Railroad was just being born. At that time, a Canadian bound for the west coast would make use of the US railroad system.

The Fall-generated tsunami hit the Maritimes, wiping out the fishing and shipping industries there although those living at higher elevations probably survived the initial impact. A surge up the St. Lawrence may have drowned parts of Montreal. Since the Fall, the Big Winter has taken its toll on the population in a similar fashion to the US. Perhaps half the population has died due to severe weather, hunger and disease. During 1879, Canadians began moving southwards, against some resistance. Geography would seem to indicate that the majority would cross the St. Lawrence River, or down Lake Champlain into central New York state. The mountains of Vermont and New Hampshire and the forests of Maine would be hard going for the refugees. The population of central New York is not that large and may find it difficult to stem the time of refugees without help from other states, Buffalo is a frozen wasteland like the other Great Lakes cities. Even in normal times, it has brutal winters. 1878-1880 would have been much worse.

That's about what I thought, but didn't know if you had something in mind.

Thanks.

[chris N]

I would take it that the Governor of New York has mobilized the Stat Milita I am not sure what federal forces would be available other than West Point. Most of the forces along the border would have withdraw south as the very cold winter hits.

Would the Canadian population from Toronto and York also be fleeing south.If this is true then Chicago and Detroit might also call on their respectice governors for assistance. It is possible that some Gunboats might be put into operation on the Great Lakes to try to control things.

It might also be that the Acting President has to call for a new Draft to have enough soldiers and Sailors to restore order to the country. It would seem that in these trying time the US would have to expand its armed forces.

[Claudius]

Originally Posted by Shadow Knight

That's about what I thought, but didn't know if you had something in mind.

Thanks.

I may work something in about the northeast, insofar as it does have a bearing on the civilian govt./military govt. conflict and the north/south negotiations

[chris N]

I would suppose that the US Naval vessel that was prepared for Artic research may have been dispatched around the Horn so that it might check and see what the conditions are in the Northeast US.

By now the USS Ticonderoga would also have returned to the east coast of the US and it would be seeking a port at which it could dock. A question would be would there be any port on the East Coast that might have been cleared enough so as to allow the ship to dock.

While Northfolk/Hampton Roads was severly damaged by the tidal wave would the weather be mild enough there so as to allow people that had escaped to the interior to begin to repair the facilities or build a new?

Critical to the survival of the nation would be the restoration of the rail system and the distribution of food supplies. The Gukf Stream's flow alond the East Coast of the US might have been able to moderate the severe cold pushing down from the north.

I would guess that most of the population of Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire would have fled to the south . The question would be would the rest of New England also have had to relocate to the south. I would guess that the loss of population along the coast could be from 25 to as high as 75%. Coastal Connecticut might have a higher survival reate due to Long Island but Rhode Island and Cape Code would be devasted.

[Azardin]

Originally Posted by chris N

Coastal Connecticut might have a higher survival reate due to Long Island but Rhode Island and Cape Code would be devasted.

Something to think about relative to this: in the Hurricane of '38 much of southern RI's shoreline was redrawn (case in point, Napatree Point/Sandy Point in Watch Hill -> Napatree was cut down by half and Sandy point is a sandbar now).

With a tsunami like after the impacts, a similar redrawing might have also occurred. Relative to the story, it could be something to consider as a interesting plot point or a reason for different recovery afterwards.

[chris N]

Without a doubt. Most of the Smaller Islands would be gone and the force of the water would make any movement by ship one that would have to be carefully handled. I would tend to think that Fishers island would be gone . It would be why the construction of new Stam powered ships would be a a requirement. I wonder if New York's Harbor would be able to operate at all but then the tidal wave bight just have made the enterance to the haror a lor deeper.

[chris N]

Commander of the US Navy, Admiral Porter had dispatched instructions from the East to the commander of the Us Naval Shipyard at Mare Island, California. Admiral Porter enclosed plans for the construction of several new warships that would be the basis of a new American naval. It was urgent that the navy be rebuilt so as to asure the security of the country and the promotion of trade with those parts of the world still functioning.

If the weather was truely changing then perhaps the navy might need a few more ships that were capable of artic exploration so as to allow the recovery of critic goods from the frozen parts of the US to the more temprid regions of the country. Admiral Porter subitted the plans to Acting President Reed and to General Sherman.

( the above is a suggested possible course of action)

[chris N]

It would seem that Mare Island could begin the construction of new ships fro the navy on the West coast. but what ship yard on the eastern seaboard or Gulf coast could be put back in operation. It would seem that the Philadelphia Naval shipyard located on the Delaware river might have been available but the change in weatheer might make a more southern shipyard essential. The Washington Naval Yard is too small.

Norfolk /Hampton Rhodes would be the ideal place but I would expect that while the Dry docks might have survived that it would take at least 2-5 years before repairs would allow the yard to begin to function and perhaps a decade before it could really begin major construction. It would require that expeditions to the North to salvage equipment.

The Springfield, Mass Arsenal would probably have to be relocated further to the south so as to be available to continue to supply arms to the army. I expect the same would hld true for the Winchester and Colt arms Manufacturing facilities.

It would appear that until the railroad could be extended to California that the country would have to rely upon the Stagecoach and freight lines to move good to and from California.