Peshawar Lancers Redux: North America

[Strategos' Risk]

Let's continue the discussion from this page!

[Emperor Norton I]

My opinion on the nations and what will be there.

California: Strong world power after the fall, claiming the area of California, and Nevada, and perhaps even Baja. The US can easily evacuate people there and if the British can survive in India, the Americans can thrive in California. Plenty of room to settle, a "Hercules in the Cradle" in and of itself even pre-fall, easily enough supplies and industrialization, etc.,etc.

United States Remnant: Comprising the Southern most US (perhaps even away from the coast as well), a society more burdened than California by trying to deal with all the refugees, but I'd say still ok enough. Plenty of room to fill up, though the industrialization probably won't be enough to get it out of the much quickly as could be the case with California. The mixing of the urbanized and modernized Yankee culture with the (slightly more) bigoted, hierarchical and archaic Dixan culture and of course the large Black culture could produce some interesting effects. Refugee Canadians could play a role in that, too.

After a while, I think you'd see expansion into the Carribean and along the coast of Mexico perhaps.

Cascadia: Probably the largest remnant of Canadian culture, mixed with the Pacific Northwest influence of the Americans. Outside of the meteor zone, so probably ok enough, save perhaps some nippiness from a cooler environment for a few years. Resource rich and probably on par with California for possibility as a world power.

Remnant Mexico: It'll probably exist in some form. Mexico pre-1950's is pretty damned chaotic and privy to the whole "Dictator of the Week" deal many nations go through, so the instability could screw it over in ways the natural conditions that led to the fall may not. And refugee Yanks could be a burden. It could break up into smaller states too (Yucatan, Republic of the Rio Grande, etc.).

Deseret: The Mormons can eek it out. They're away from the area of destruction and are pretty independent already, so they can manage. And they'd probably welcome independence from the US government. You could see a sort of "Crusade" ideology grow and them try to carve a large nation out of the west.

Indian Nation: Probable. Many are mobile and still free in 1870, so they can move wherever they need to. However, the environmental damage could harm the natural balance they rely on to a possibly devastating degree.

Black Nation: The South is of course repressive of the black community so it is not out there to assume that if the blacks are suppressed further or forced to do hard labor or have their food taken away by a white populace who needs to ration, etc. and seeks survival out of the chaos, they'll fight back. Or even if it could be heavily viewed as more beneficiary and feasible for an independent nation, the blacks of the south could establish one. Mississippi, perhaps.

Alaska and Canada: Frosty Russians and Canooks. I'd say most people die, but a few straglers could survive ala the Cave people of the Ice Age.

And of course there are the many other nations that could be created by refugees and militia in conjunction with whoever else (maybe even Indians), that could come about. City states in many areas, even those the book says were frozen or decimated (since I doubt just because the Northeast is said to be decimated, all of it feasibly could be in total), could easily exist.

[Strategos' Risk]

I've personally always thought that the (Bear Flag) Republic of California should have done better than being "theocratic city-states" as described in the book. Some of the talk from the previous thread give me an idea: maybe Sherman and Grant retreat west, try to create an enclave U.S.-in-exile, but eventually it becomes the nucleus of a highly-functioning but West Coast-only Californian nation? Shades of Fallout, by the way.

I used to think the South would be as screwed as the Atlantic Northwest, but the ideas of a second civil war breaking out as the people running Reconstruction suddenly find their superiors in D.C. dead is kind of intriguing.

I still want a Sobel-style United States of Mexico bilingual hybrid nation, dammit.

I also wrote this a while ago. Hope this provides some ideas:

Eric King's observations and the appendices of The Peshawar Lancers are both somewhat coloured by the perceptions of Imperial superiority. Here is the dark side of Raj hegemony- while they acknowledge states that are either subservient (Madagascar, Batavian Republic), allies (France-outre-mere), neutral and self-seeking (Brazil), or outright enemies (everyone else), there isn't a real desire to help or recognize the USm, which is in its way of complete domination of North America. Racial issues might be at work here. Perhaps some Imperial historians believe that the U.S. would have eventually rivaled or even overtaken British might, had the Fall not occurred. Therefore, in North America the Imperials take the attitude of "lucky about the Fall, eh?", and are fairly condescending to its inhabitants. Thus, there's a deliberate inclination to both ignore and underestimate the American-Mexican state.

[Jord839]

Originally Posted by Emperor Norton I

My opinion on the nations and what will be there.

California: Strong world power after the fall, claiming the area of California, and Nevada, and perhaps even Baja. The US can easily evacuate people there and if the British can survive in India, the Americans can thrive in California. Plenty of room to settle, a "Hercules in the Cradle" in and of itself even pre-fall, easily enough supplies and industrialization, etc.,etc.

Very possible. Maybe even likely if they don't get back into contact with the rest of the US for a while.

United States Remnant: Comprising the Southern most US (perhaps even away from the coast as well), a society more burdened than California by trying to deal with all the refugees, but I'd say still ok enough. Plenty of room to fill up, though the industrialization probably won't be enough to get it out of the much quickly as could be the case with California. The mixing of the urbanized and modernized Yankee culture with the (slightly more) bigoted, hierarchical and archaic Dixan culture and of course the large Black culture could produce some interesting effects. Refugee Canadians could play a role in that, too.

After a while, I think you'd see expansion into the Carribean and along the coast of Mexico perhaps.

Also makes sense. The blacks might still be oppressed as the Yankees won't be too keen on sharing power and supplies with them.

Cascadia: Probably the largest remnant of Canadian culture, mixed with the Pacific Northwest influence of the Americans. Outside of the meteor zone, so probably ok enough, save perhaps some nippiness from a cooler environment for a few years. Resource rich and probably on par with California for possibility as a world power.

I'll disagree on the World Power bit. I think that, because it would be so cold and such at first, it might be held back too much for a long time. Then again, I don't know the exact effects on Cascadia, personally.

Remnant Mexico: It'll probably exist in some form. Mexico pre-1950's is pretty damned chaotic and privy to the whole "Dictator of the Week" deal many nations go through, so the instability could screw it over in ways the natural conditions that led to the fall may not. And refugee Yanks could be a burden. It could break up into smaller states too (Yucatan, Republic of the Rio Grande, etc.).

This one is a sure thing, one wonders though if Mexico would instead be a much smaller nation kept as a puppet by the US.

Deseret: The Mormons can eek it out. They're away from the area of destruction and are pretty independent already, so they can manage. And they'd probably welcome independence from the US government. You could see a sort of "Crusade" ideology grow and them try to carve a large nation out of the west.

Interesting idea, but Utah(and most areas with Mormons) are in the Rocky Mountains. The cooling temperatures will make things hell there. I can picture a lot of Mormons fleeing "Deseret" in the first few years. Maybe they go to the US Remnant and become a major influence on the religion there due to the North America-centric theory of the religion?

Indian Nation: Probable. Many are mobile and still free in 1870, so they can move wherever they need to. However, the environmental damage could harm the natural balance they rely on to a possibly devastating degree.

Not so sure about this one. I can see maybe a tiny nation in Oklahoma or the southwest kept around in the same way the Batavian Republic is, but not much more. A Navajo-Apache-Comanche nation pushed to the side by the US and used as a buffer between them and california, maybe.

Black Nation: The South is of course repressive of the black community so it is not out there to assume that if the blacks are suppressed further or forced to do hard labor or have their food taken away by a white populace who needs to ration, etc. and seeks survival out of the chaos, they'll fight back. Or even if it could be heavily viewed as more beneficiary and feasible for an independent nation, the blacks of the south could establish one. Mississippi, perhaps.

I doubt one would last long, personally, but there might be quite a good many of these in the time between the Fall and whenever the story takes place due to rebellions.

I don't think anyone's going to be around in Alaska though. Maybe a few inuits if they're really lucky. But no functioning Victorian nation. There may be city states left over in the interior though from when the cooling ends and people rediscover agriculture.

[Claudius]

Taking Stirling's statement that "large fragments fell in a wider band all the way to the Rockies", how does that effect things? For starters it complicates the movement of refugees from the upper midwest to the south and to the west. If I recall correctly it is snowing heavily in London in June as a result of the Fall. In 1878, the road system in the western US was primitive, mostly just rutted wagon trails. Heavy snow makes them impassable.The railroads were the only good way of getting west of Iowa. North-south transportation was a little easier, but we can expect that even river traffic on the Misssissippi may be impeded or stopped by foul weather. By December, ice will make travel on that river almost impossible. For the Union Pacific, heavy snowfalls in the Rockies stop rail travel to California by October at the latest.

.....General Grant arrives in California and finds that after an initial surge of immigrants from the East that snowfall in the Rockies has cut off communications with the remnant US. Telegraph communication failed almost immediately after the Fall as a result of freakish weather, fires and the loss of telegraphers and repair crews. He makes his way to San Francisco where the chief citizens of the city, including Leland Stanford, the President of the Union Pacific Railroad ask him to serve as the head of an emergency government. An election later that year confirms him as MIlitary Governor.

[King Gorilla]

As cool as it is, Cascadia seems unlikely given that the canadian pacific railway hasn't yet been constructed, hence it will be unable to transfer sufficient refugees/machine tools to support itself and the natural consequences of three years of winter in a northernly climate. That being said its existing population could potentally support themselves off of fish for those first few hard years.

[Claudius]

Originally Posted by King Gorilla

As cool as it is, Cascadia seems unlikely given that the canadian pacific railway hasn't yet been constructed, hence it will be unable to transfer sufficient refugees/machine tools to support itself and the natural consequences of three years of winter in a northernly climate. That being said its existing population could potentally support themselves off of fish for those first few hard years.

...Until the California Naval Expedition arrives.

[Analytical Engine]

Originally Posted by Claudius

...Until the California Naval Expedition arrives.

Or until the Raj arrives...

My map has a Raj British Colombia-Washington, with Oregon a part of California.

It's not like the Californians could really stop the Raj from colonising a bit of the Pacific North West, and probably partition it in exchange for trade.

[jacobus]

Black Nation: The South is of course repressive of the black community so it is not out there to assume that if the blacks are suppressed further or forced to do hard labor or have their food taken away by a white populace who needs to ration, etc. and seeks survival out of the chaos, they'll fight back. Or even if it could be heavily viewed as more beneficiary and feasible for an independent nation, the blacks of the south could establish one. Mississippi, perhaps.

This is a very interesting idea. In Turtledove's alternate timeline novel "Disunited States of America", Mississippi is a nation where at some point in the past the downtrodden black majority rose up and seized power, subjugating the white minority, who are now the oppressed caste. Nearby nations such as Texas (which is much larger than our state of Texas) and Virginia are still white-ruled, and blacks there are still treated as second-class citizens. Unfortunately, Turtledove didn't include a map in this book, but obviously the borders of the Disunited States wouldn't be drawn as straight lines like the borders of our states.
In Niven and Pournelle's "Orion Shall Rise", which takes place centuries after a worldwide nuclear war, new nations have arisen, as well as many "terra nullius" areas populated by pre-industrial peoples (I almost said barbarians, that was a close one!). One character in the book has a sort of cafe au lait complexion, and it's mentioned that for the most part the pre-collapse African American strain in North America has diffused itself throughout the population, although in the southeast people still tend to be darker. Map ://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Maurai.PNG
As far as California goes, I suppose the cities might unite into a single country, rather than remain city-states as Stirling said. I think he also said the Californians retained their independence by playing off the Angrezi Raj against Dai-Nihon, and vice-versa.

[Claudius]

Originally Posted by Analytical Engine

Or until the Raj arrives...

My map has a Raj British Colombia-Washington, with Oregon a part of California.

It's not like the Californians could really stop the Raj from colonising a bit of the Pacific North West, and probably partition it in exchange for trade.

I disagree. By the time the Raj has settled the Second Great Mutiny and gotten back on its feet, the California Republic is fairly strong. Also, the Raj is depending on sailing ships for its navy. (no coaling stations) and the supply chain for its forces is what..8000 miles long? California is right there, and doesn't have any local major military problems, unless Diaz in Mexico tries to make trouble. To the east, the Rockies are a major barrier, and the LDS in Deseret will be having their own problems with the weather.

[Analytical Engine]

Originally Posted by Claudius

I disagree. By the time the Raj has settled the Second Great Mutiny and gotten back on its feet, the California Republic is fairly strong. Also, the Raj is depending on sailing ships for its navy. (no coaling stations) and the supply chain for its forces is what..8000 miles long? California is right there, and doesn't have any local major military problems, unless Diaz in Mexico tries to make trouble. To the east, the Rockies are a major barrier, and the LDS in Deseret will be having their own problems with the weather.

It's still going to take a while to settle Oregon, though, not to mention that Canada is going to be rather cold...

[Claudius]

Originally Posted by Analytical Engine

It's still going to take a while to settle Oregon, though, not to mention that Canada is going to be rather cold...

That's true. Is there data in Peshawar Lancers about how long it took for the Raj to stablize?

[superkuf]

Originally Posted by Claudius

That's true. Is there data in Peshawar Lancers about how long it took for the Raj to stablize?

Define "stabilize".

Not really, but I would guess that 25 years After Fall the British rule of India was safe. The afghan invasion was thrown back, the Second Rebellion crushed and industrialisation back on track. But also a lot of small rebellions, border thefts and a lot of low-level friction with the indians.

However, mentally the Raj and the British were shellshocked. They had left their homeland to starvation and death, slaughtered all sorts of natives and seen civilisation all over the world fall apart. It is fairly clear in the book that everyone still is conservative and cautious about the Big Picture, a memory of the time of the Fall. The Raj would not try to expand to North America until earliest 1950 - if even then.

[Claudius]

Originally Posted by superkuf

Define "stabilize".

Not really, but I would guess that 25 years After Fall the British rule of India was safe. The afghan invasion was thrown back, the Second Rebellion crushed and industrialisation back on track. But also a lot of small rebellions, border thefts and a lot of low-level friction with the indians.

However, mentally the Raj and the British were shellshocked. They had left their homeland to starvation and death, slaughtered all sorts of natives and seen civilisation all over the world fall apart. It is fairly clear in the book that everyone still is conservative and cautious about the Big Picture, a memory of the time of the Fall. The Raj would not try to expand to North America until earliest 1950 - if even then.

So if the Raj is mostly concerned with its own neighborhood (India, Afghanistan, Australia, South Africa and Russia) up to 1950, North America will pretty much recover and develop on its own. By 1900 I think California will be prosperous and expanding. Cascadia might well petition The California Republic to be a member State. (I'm assuming that after the initial chaos immediately following the Fall that California will remain a constitutional democracy with a state/federal structure modelled on the Constituion of the old USA.) States might include California, Baja, Oregon, at least parts of Nevada and Arizona. Commercial ties with the Raj are possible, but more likely with the Kingdom of Hawaii and Latin America

[mrmandias]

What could be interesting is claims by both the Southern US and the Californian US to be the real successor to the United States. You may also see some reuinification movements in both countries.

[King Gorilla]

Originally Posted by mrmandias

What could be interesting is claims by both the Southern US and the Californian US to be the real successor to the United States. You may also see some reuinification movements in both countries.

Well following impact, I'd imagine that the United States would fairly quickly find itself under martial law in the control of a Military government. General Grant would be in charge of the West Coast after returning from Japan, while Sherman would be coordinating the evacuation operations east of the Rockies. Alternative capitals would be set up in San Francisco and St. Louis respectively.

The entirety of the East Coast would pretty much have to be written off due to the tidal waves. The Midwest, although hit by smaller meteor impacts, would be salvageable as a source of refuges and industrial assets. As nuclear winter descends order is maintained solely due to the might of the Union army. The rail and wireless networks between the two governments would be kept operation up until the Rocky mountain passes completely snow over. At which point Sherman and Grant are forced to go down their separate paths. The military rule in the East gets harsher, with food riots being put down with lethal force, and the destiny of the two Americas begin to diverge.

[Jord839]

Originally Posted by King Gorilla

Well following impact, I'd imagine that the United States would fairly quickly find itself under martial law in the control of a Military government. General Grant would be in charge of the West Coast after returning from Japan, while Sherman would be coordinating the evacuation operations east of the Rockies. Alternative capitals would be set up in San Francisco and St. Louis respectively.

The entirety of the East Coast would pretty much have to be written off due to the tidal waves. The Midwest, although hit by smaller meteor impacts, would be salvageable as a source of refuges and industrial assets. As nuclear winter descends order is maintained solely due to the might of the Union army. The rail and wireless networks between the two governments would be kept operation up until the Rocky mountain passes completely snow over. At which point Sherman and Grant are forced to go down their separate paths. The military rule in the East gets harsher, with food riots being put down with lethal force, and the destiny of the two Americas begin to diverge.

That's a pretty interesting way for the story to go. Show hope of a united US sticking around in face of adversity, and then as the time goes on and the ppressures of the post-Fall world get too much, they begin to diverge so much that by the time of the original story, they're in something of a Cold War.

[Claudius]

Originally Posted by King Gorilla

Well following impact, I'd imagine that the United States would fairly quickly find itself under martial law in the control of a Military government. General Grant would be in charge of the West Coast after returning from Japan, while Sherman would be coordinating the evacuation operations east of the Rockies. Alternative capitals would be set up in San Francisco and St. Louis respectively.

The entirety of the East Coast would pretty much have to be written off due to the tidal waves. The Midwest, although hit by smaller meteor impacts, would be salvageable as a source of refuges and industrial assets. As nuclear winter descends order is maintained solely due to the might of the Union army. The rail and wireless networks between the two governments would be kept operation up until the Rocky mountain passes completely snow over. At which point Sherman and Grant are forced to go down their separate paths. The military rule in the East gets harsher, with food riots being put down with lethal force, and the destiny of the two Americas begin to diverge.

That's a promising path, but I still think St. Louis might get too cold for a couple of years. Still as a military outpost supplied in warmer month by riverboat might be possible

[King Gorilla]

Originally Posted by Jord839

That's a pretty interesting way for the story to go. Show hope of a united US sticking around in face of adversity, and then as the time goes on and the ppressures of the post-Fall world get too much, they begin to diverge so much that by the time of the original story, they're in something of a Cold War.

Thanks. I imagine that after the famine years have ended, the two America's would begin resettlement along different trajectories. The primary interest of both powers would probably be increased food production. California would go first along the pacific coast, then eastwards to the Rockies for both its mineral and hydrological resources. The Southern states of America, would go northwards along the Mississippi, basically enacting a second Northwest ordnance to first recolonize the upper south, and then the great lakes before branching out east and west. Mexico could conceivably be the site of a micro Great Game between the two powers.

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Definitely check out the following link for some great ideas for nations in North America, the Carribean, and Central America.

http://www.buckyogi.com/footnotes/atlas.htm

One idea that could make things interesting is the United States of Central America (e.g. El Salvador, Honduras, and Nicaragua) with a capital in Managua. In the ATL, consider that the influx of northern refugees creates a massive incentive to unite....