D-Day Invasion in the Balkans

As we know today, Winston Churchill opposed the D-Day invasion in Normandy. Of all the Atlantic Wall fortifications, these were the strongest; he expected Allied casualties to be incredibly high, and he was right. Churchill thought we should land in the Balkans instead, pushing up towards Germany from there. There was the additional benefit of cutting off the Red Army's drive through Europe, which would have saved some of it from postwar Soviet subjugation.
Unfortunately, I have no idea where the British wanted to come ashore. Greece? Albania? Croatia?
I wonder if the NDH would have defected to the Allied side, after we'd invaded Croatia, if we'd promised them that Croatia could keep its sovereignty after the war, and wouldn't be forced to rejoin Yugoslavia, if its people voted for continued independence.
What might the results of a Balkan D-Day have been? Fewer casualties? A reduced Soviet sphere after the war? Or a longer and costlier war, as Roosevelt and Stalin seemed to think? Actually I believe Churchill thought this might prolong the war too. But he thought it would be worth it, if Soviet domination of Eastern Europe could be prevented, or at least diminished.

Churchill was right. A Balkans op would have been easier to do and after the war there would have been much less Soviet presence in eastern/southeastern Europe. But pushing into Germany would've been a bit harder. For one, people in the Balkans were more loyal to the Axis than the French were.

What about a larger invasion of southern France and an invasion of the Balkans

If This happens, won't the red army be more canalised on the North and finish the war in the Netherlands, at least, possibly belgium or northern France?

You may have exchanged soviet domination in south eastern europe for soviet domination in north western europe. What happens if the soviet navy has a port on the channel?

For a Balkan option to be feasible you need earlier PODs.

Don't forget too, that the US wanted a cross-channel invasion in '42! The quickest most direct way to bring the German Army to battle. Having too the advantage of being more easily supplied from the US to the UK. They felt they were iniatially fobbed off with the North-West African invasion instead, and then were still reluctant to go for Sicilly and Italy - they had to be planned and agreed separately.

So first you need a quicker conclusion to the 'Desert' campaign, with IMO a smaller invasion (but several months earlier than OTL) of Sicilly - but quickly followed by another landing on the mainland e.g. Tarranto - which has the effect of trapping Axis forces in Sicilly. Now with Allied forces driving north primarly on the eastern side of Italy - with less Axis forces to oppose them, (and IMO the east is likely to be less geographically challenging than the Western side) the Foggia airfield complex is reached in the summer of '43.
Moreover in this situation, like OTL the Allies would have taken Sardinia and Corsica, giving them many strategic options.
While the Americans would argue that a cross-channel invasion was possible in September '43, the British could say that there would be less risk with continuing operations in the Med., and a landing on say the Dalmation coast would threaten Axis supply lines in the area - with potential of punching through to Vienna.

Dangers, getting bogged down in a geographically challenging area (like Italy OTL) of Croatia and Austria - too easily defended - not good tank country compared with north western France.

Still, those who propose it would argue it doesn't stop a cross-channel invasion happening in the spring of '44, indeed might make it easier!

UnusEful and hard Operation in my Opinion- Belgrad is less important, than Paris

jacobus said:

As we know today, Winston Churchill opposed the D-Day invasion in Normandy. Of all the Atlantic Wall fortifications, these were the strongest; he expected Allied casualties to be incredibly high, and he was right. Churchill thought we should land in the Balkans instead, pushing up towards Germany from there. There was the additional benefit of cutting off the Red Army's drive through Europe, which would have saved some of it from postwar Soviet subjugation.

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That explains what happened in my Hearts of Iron game!

I was playing as the Soviets and the British actually invaded the Balkans while I was driving west through Europe. They actually came up through Greece and approached my southern border. However, they weren't able to cut me off from liberating Europe because Yugoslavia stayed neutral and Hungary surrendered.

Here, you can see an illustration in this picture. The pink portion in the Balkans is where the British invaded.

KyleB said:

For one, people in the Balkans were more loyal to the Axis than the French were.

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You must be kidding. The Balkans were the location of the largest and best-organized resistance to German occupation anywhere in their occupied territories (possibly excepting Poland) - ever heard of Tito? On the other hand, France, despite the endless propaganda during and after the war idolizing the "French resistance" (to the point where Allied generals began to believe their own propaganda), hosted the smallest resistance anywhere in the Reich. The band of lackadaisical Communists that made up the French resistance (a force that inexplicably grew several orders of magnitude in the areas already liberated by the Allies) were smaller than the organized resistance to Nazi rule in Germany. Hell, there were more resistance fighters in the relatively tiny nation of Denmark.

wormyguy said:

You must be kidding. The Balkans were the location of the largest and best-organized resistance to German occupation anywhere in their occupied territories (possibly excepting Poland) - ever heard of Tito? On the other hand, France, despite the endless propaganda during and after the war idolizing the "French resistance" (to the point where Allied generals began to believe their own propaganda), hosted the smallest resistance anywhere in the Reich. The band of lackadaisical Communists that made up the French resistance (a force that inexplicably grew several orders of magnitude in the areas already liberated by the Allies) were smaller than the organized resistance to Nazi rule in Germany. Hell, there were more resistance fighters in the relatively tiny nation of Denmark.

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I believe he was referring to the other nations in the region. Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Cezchoslovakia, and Austria.

These where more proxy nations than anything, but they sent several hundred thousand troops to fight for the Axis, mainly in Russia.

There is a big differense between landing in the Balkans and in Normandy. Normandy is flat, Balkan has mountains

Hyperion said:

I believe he was referring to the other nations in the region. Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Cezchoslovakia, and Austria.

These where more proxy nations than anything, but they sent several hundred thousand troops to fight for the Axis, mainly in Russia.

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By this point, Bulgaria was looking for an out and would likely get it. Romania, when threatened further, is likely to switch sides if it knows it can get away with it. This has the added benefit of cutting off a lot of Germany's oil supply, which was another of Churchill's goals.
Yugoslavia and that mess would be a gain for the allies, as they would have troops on the ground aiding them in their push up the coast. It also gives bases earlier for bombing Germany's factories and cities in the east. The Czechs would love to fight against the Germans once the allies arrived. Horthy in Hungary tried to switch sides and join with the Russians, but Skorzeny kidnapped his son while the two were at a meeting with the allies. The only thing going for the Germans would be the terrain. The people in the region were only fighting because they were strong armed into the Axis.

Let´s see. the Balkans were weakly garrisoned by Germany –remember they could not defeat Tito- but most of the oil and almost all of the copper and bauxite came from there. Than there is the fact of Romania and Bulgaria changing sides when the Red Army came near their countries. Hungary tried the same, but failed.

wormyguy said:

You must be kidding. The Balkans were the location of the largest and best-organized resistance to German occupation anywhere in their occupied territories (possibly excepting Poland) - ever heard of Tito? On the other hand, France, despite the endless propaganda during and after the war idolizing the "French resistance" (to the point where Allied generals began to believe their own propaganda), hosted the smallest resistance anywhere in the Reich. The band of lackadaisical Communists that made up the French resistance (a force that inexplicably grew several orders of magnitude in the areas already liberated by the Allies) were smaller than the organized resistance to Nazi rule in Germany. Hell, there were more resistance fighters in the relatively tiny nation of Denmark.

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True about the balkans and especially tito, but mostly False about actual french resistance - though the dig about post-war growth of french resistance is correct ( claiming to be a resistant in just liberated area meant immediate enrolment in the french army, for the remainder of the fighting, so most of the growth was after the war, not immediately after liberation ) -.

I suggest you check some facts. French resistance was definitely not as limited as you seem to think - nor as developped as was claimed by self-proclaimed resistant after the war -.

WTF was with Churchills obsession with southern europe?

It doesn't seem that good an idea, it is a bit from German core areas, and I don't see why this is going to do any better than Italy.

Ok, HOW can you invade it?
Two variants:
1)From Italia
2)Landing troops.
In the 2nd case Turkey could take a part in a war. In Yugoslavia germany had at least 150.000 men with 350 airplanes, 2130 artillery pieces and 125 tanks and other armour Bulgaria had near 500.000 in army.
Allies cant send a lot of troops to Balkans(i think, it wold be pure English Operation with pure english troops)-in this case they wouldnt make a good progress-it would be like Macedonian front in WW1...befor soviet troops appearence.

Joseph K. said:

WTF was with Churchills obsession with southern europe?

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Maybe it was a prestige thing ... the Brits kinda got booted out of Greece (and Crete) so perhaps it was something along lines of our Philippines (I shall return!) exit and return. He wanted to finish what they started? IMO I think it had to do with sealing off as much of Europe from the Bolshies as possible.

Joseph K. said:

It doesn't seem that good an idea, it is a bit from German core areas, and I don't see why this is going to do any better than Italy.

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Hmmmm ... so what about the effects of some type of limited invasion/occupation? Something on a smaller scale and in conjunction with the same Operation Overlord as in OTL. Say, a large force branches off from the stalemated Italy campaign to lets say Albania. They create a pocket or bubble easily defendable. I'm not talking D-Day like numbers but enough troops to land and occupy a large area. There is no mythical Atlantic wall here to penetrate so if the Allies can supply the force it's just a matter of manpower and equipment. Supplies should be available from just across the Adriatic or even the narrower Otranto strait. This 'bubble' creates is fair share of problems for the Axis and offers a lot of return benefits for the Allies. First, it could create a large safe haven and rallying point for Yugoslavian resistance (and other movements [ex. Greece]). They can be more controlled and supplied from this pocket for great effect. The Axis would be forced to transfer forces to the area as they could not know the scale of such an operation. Depending on the date, I'm just not sure how ‘force’ the Reich would have had to throw around. I suppose they could not have ignored the pocket either way. Either way, any forces taken from other theatres could only help a Normandy invasion, Italy or the Red Army. It could also place a lot of political pressure on the Axis minor governments. If the pocket is limited at first, options would greatly open up after the Soviet offensives of pre-September 44 and the Allied landings in France. Could create a lot of trouble for the already cracking Eastern front line. The major hindrance would probably be the lack of a large port if operations in the Balkans would be expanded.