Monaco, Ottoman, Venice Alliance

Elrodian · #1 May 26th, 2009, 07:56 PM

Would the Ottomans and Venice ally with Monaco in order to take down the Republic of Genoa. My belief is that they would. The Ottomans and Venice would like to take down Genoa in order to get there lands in the black sea and Greek islands that the Genoa own. And in returen Monaco gets some land on the west cost of the Med. I am wrong for thinking so? The time fram for this is around 1300s to 1400s

False Dmitri · #2 May 26th, 2009, 08:18 PM

I personally don't think Monaco would carry much weight in the matter. If Venice and Turkey teamed up to fight Genoa, Monaco could maybe latch on to the big guys and hope to gain from it. But even in the context of Renaissance Italy, Monaco was a very, very small state.

Elrodian · #3 May 26th, 2009, 08:26 PM

Ok. Thank you for the answer I trying to gather info for a timeline with Monaco gaining a lot more power then it had/has. My thought was that Monaco would some what like pirates that the other would use to mess with the republic's heart land as they worked on the other lands. In return for their help they can get small bits of land.

Falastur · #4 May 26th, 2009, 09:57 PM

Well the Ottomans themselves would be enough to take the Genoese possessions, there's little need for Venice and certainly none for Monaco, even if it was somewhat enlarged. The thing was that, like Venice, Genoa as a trading nation repeatedly used trading agreements to ensure control over its far-flung outposts. When Genoa's power declined around 1400, the Ottomans saw little reason to continue the agreements and cut off and captured all the outposts. Before that point, it saw enough value in Genoese trade to guarantee the Genoese sovereignty. Likewise the way that the Venetians kept control of their far-west Mediterranean holdings; they bartered for their safety, and occasionally the Ottomans got a little belligerent and attacked one place but respected the other deals for the other outposts. Outside of these agreements, a war only with Venice is the more like scenario, as the two trade republics tended to show contempt and hostility to each other for centuries.

Monaco, all in all, would be a liability. Any war with Genoa and Venice/Ottomans would be fought in the outposts, not in central Europe. By including Monaco, you're just making the chance of Monaco themselves being conquered increase, because Venice wouldn't bother with sending troops to help out. And if Genoa is threatened in its homeland, other countries will get annoyed and jump in - Savoy and particularly France often interfered with Genoa, and France repeatedly occupied Genoa as a "Genoa is our sphere of influence, hands off" type of message. Later on, they fell into the Spanish sphere, but by that time they owned no land east of Corsica anyway.

Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy · #5 May 26th, 2009, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falastur

Later on, they fell into the Spanish sphere, but by that time they owned no land east of Corsica anyway.

Chios until 1566, but nothing after that IIRC.

False Dmitri · #6 May 26th, 2009, 10:32 PM

If the Venetians and Turks did fight a war, and a blockade and/or seige of Genoa came into play, the Grimaldis could lend them some locals as spies and scouts, then be rewarded with something. Again, though, Monaco would hardly play a decisive role, and would no doubt end up as a Venetian puppet. Of course, that's not necessarily a bad thing to be!

Falastur · #7 May 26th, 2009, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy

Chios until 1566, but nothing after that IIRC.

Hmm...got me there. Touche.

Elrodian · #8 May 27th, 2009, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benkarnell

If the Venetians and Turks did fight a war, and a blockade and/or seige of Genoa came into play, the Grimaldis could lend them some locals as spies and scouts, then be rewarded with something. Again, though, Monaco would hardly play a decisive role, and would no doubt end up as a Venetian puppet. Of course, that's not necessarily a bad thing to be!

I would have to agree be a Venetian puppet could help them until they gain some more power. I should have said this is OP but never thought that Monaco would play a huge part. I was think it would more secret alliance. The Grimaldis still had members live in Genoa and they still had some power in the city, so it would be easier for them to infiltrate Genoa then spies working directly for the Venetians and Turks (As you said). My plans are not to get them a lot of power and land real fast from this but start growing from the small bits of land that they might be rewarded.

False Dmitri · #9 May 28th, 2009, 09:51 PM

Nice idea! Monacowank. I have an Andorrawank in my own TL, sort of. What does "OP" mean?

sunsurf · #10 May 28th, 2009, 09:55 PM

Is there any way Monaco could obtain a large chunk of OTL Spain and/or France and hence become noticeably larger? Maybe not quite as big as OTL Spain and/or France...?

Falastur · #11 May 28th, 2009, 10:20 PM

hmm...well, could you define "large chunk" (how big?) and do you mean Monaco acquiring it, or the Grimaldis themselves? It depends somewhat on the size of the territory you mean, but there are two ways this could happen - if the Grimaldis inherited, as a very unlikely example...Aragon, then Monaco would be forgotten as Aragon would become the primary territory, just like you couldn't say that Hanover ruled the UK when the Hanoverians inherited the throne. If you mean Monaco itself acquiring it then it becomes much harder to justify, though again there are a few methods. None of which are very likely, I must admit. It really depends on what size of land you are inferring them acquiring.