The Second Roman Republic established in 27 BC

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
Lets Suppose Octavius Augustus Caesar at the conclusion of his power struggle with Mark Anthony, decides to rewrite the Constitition as follows and abide by it instead of making himself Emperor writing the following Constitution.
I, Octavius Augustus Caesar, in Order to for, a more perfect Republic, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare and secure the Blessing of Liberty and the favor of the Gods, do ordain, as first Citizen of Rome, and establish this Constitution for the new Roman Republic.

ARTICLE I
All legislative powers herein forthwith shall be granted to the Assembly of the Pleblicite of Greater Rome, it is in their power and their's alone to enact legislation involving taxation and public expenditures in the name of the Republic.

The Assembly Pleblicite shall be chosen every two years by all free citizens of the Roman Territories in a Republic wide election. All male citizens of legal age shall be deemed eligible to participate by casting their votes in these elections.

The Senate shall be chosen by the governments of each of the provinces of the Republic - Each provicicial government shall get to choose two Senators to sit in the forum and approve or disapprove all legislative bills enacted by the Assembly Plebicite. All Senators shall be chosen for a six year term so staggered such that one third of all Senators in the Forum will be up for reappointment every two years.

The Chief Executive, forthwith called the First Citizen of Rome shall preside over the Government of the Republic, shall be commander and chief of all Roman armed forces, Legions, navies etc, and shall get the veto over all forms of legislation enacted by the Assembly and Senate subject to a two-thirds majority over ride vote in both the Pleblicite Assembly and the Forum of Senators.

The Office of Second Citizen shall take over as First Citizen should the later die while in office or be rendered incapable of continuing to serve as so determined by the Assembly and Senate.

The First Citizen shall be chosen in an election of all male Roman Citizens of legal Age throughout all Roman Territories and provinces, each shall vote for an elector in his district and the electors shall meet in Rome and count their votes to decide on the First and Second Citizens. The First Citizen shall be the one with the largest number of electoral votes while the Second Citizen shall be the runner up in vote totals. Each First Citizen and Second Citizen shall serve for a four year term of office and is eligible for reelection at the conclusion of each term served. Any Male citizen of legal age is eligible to run for the office of First and Second Citizen.

What are the chances of this new Democratic Roman Republic surviving in the Ancient World?
How long do you think such a Republic modeled after the Early United States of America in Our timeline, is going to survive, and if this Republic got a well enough start as the USA did in our timeline, how does this change things?

If there is a formal Amendment seperating Religion from the secular government of Rome, what happens in Judea at the time of the Crucifixion of Christ. If the Roman Constitution requires that the province of Judea have a democratically elected government in the Republican form elected by all male Roman Citizens, with the definition of Male Citizens being all male non-slaves residing in Judea at the time electors are decided. Does Christianity take a different form?

What happens as the centuries progress, how well do barbarian tribes do against the Democratic Republic of Rome? Does civilization still go into decline in the timeframe of the original timeline or does it take longer or shorter?
 
As appealing as this constitution sounds to modern ears, I believe it would have been stillborn in Ancient Rome. The basic problem is that it deprives the leading families of all their traditional powers and, perhaps more importantly, symbols of status and respect. Were Octavian to propose such a drastic move, I have no doubt but that he would be killed within a few months. The Senate would then probably try to restore the traditional republican system (I don't think anyone else was in a good position to seize sole power in 27), but I can't even see that system working for more than a few years. Eventually you'd see the rise of another 'Imperator'.

But let’s say, just for the sake of argument, that Octavian managed to implement his radical new constitution. Maybe he simply purged 90% of the leading families (although I don't believe such a move was in his nature), or perhaps a friendly ASB decides to alter some social mores. Anyway, some how Octavian manages to implement his reforms and the people accept them. Then what?

Unfortunately, I don't even see this scenario ending well. The problem now is the sheer size of the Empire. Simply put, American style democracy would have a hard time functioning when it could take months to travel from one side of the realm to the other. Remember, when the US started off, it was a lot smaller than it is today. Most of the western regions started off as territories and only achieved statehood when they had sufficient population, and more importantly, transportation infrastructure to ensure the sort of rapid travel and communication required of representative democracy.

If am American style constitution was imposed on the Roman world, I see the Empire breaking down into several semi-independent regions ruled by locally elected officials and only paying attention to federal oversight when it suited their purposes. In order to counter this, the state would require a strong military presence in each province which answered to a central authority. Unfortunately, this would effectively end representative government in the provinces (which defeats the purpose of the whole reform). Alternately, the troops would swear loyalty to their local leader (as often happened in OTL) and we'd see a never-ending sequence of civil wars.

Well, looking back over this I see I've rambled on a bit... Sorry for being so pessimistic, but I can't honestly see modern democracy working in ancient Rome unless it evolved slowly on its own. :(
 
Lets Suppose Octavius Augustus Caesar at the conclusion of his power struggle with Mark Anthony, decides to rewrite the Constitition as follows and abide by it instead of making himself Emperor writing the following Constitution.


What are the chances of this new Democratic Roman Republic surviving in the Ancient World?
How long do you think such a Republic modeled after the Early United States of America in Our timeline, is going to survive, and if this Republic got a well enough start as the USA did in our timeline, how does this change things?

If there is a formal Amendment seperating Religion from the secular government of Rome, what happens in Judea at the time of the Crucifixion of Christ. If the Roman Constitution requires that the province of Judea have a democratically elected government in the Republican form elected by all male Roman Citizens, with the definition of Male Citizens being all male non-slaves residing in Judea at the time electors are decided. Does Christianity take a different form?

What happens as the centuries progress, how well do barbarian tribes do against the Democratic Republic of Rome? Does civilization still go into decline in the timeframe of the original timeline or does it take longer or shorter?

The Roman law-making process didn't work that way.
 
Actually once Julius Caesar showed the Romans how to grasp power through the army Roman Republic was doomed... Plus with such a "constitution" Rome would have disintegrated in 10 years...
 
If there is a formal Amendment seperating Religion from the secular government of Rome, what happens in Judea at the time of the Crucifixion of Christ. If the Roman Constitution requires that the province of Judea have a democratically elected government in the Republican form elected by all male Roman Citizens, with the definition of Male Citizens being all male non-slaves residing in Judea at the time electors are decided. Does Christianity take a different form?

I'm afraid that I agree with Tarchon on this, the Empire at this time is simply too large to allow this type of government.
Also, in reference to the above quote, what percentage of free males in Judea in BC 27 were Roman citizens? You have a number of Legionaires, a few traders and a few (and this is the crux of the question) men like Herod and Saul/Paul (although he wasn't even born yet) who were Citizens, but that's it. Through most of the provinces, how many of the population were eligable to vote?
If the percentage is ten percent or less, there is no real change for the man on the street and thus no real change to the timeline.
 

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
I'm afraid that I agree with Tarchon on this, the Empire at this time is simply too large to allow this type of government.
Also, in reference to the above quote, what percentage of free males in Judea in BC 27 were Roman citizens? You have a number of Legionaires, a few traders and a few (and this is the crux of the question) men like Herod and Saul/Paul (although he wasn't even born yet) who were Citizens, but that's it. Through most of the provinces, how many of the population were eligable to vote?
If the percentage is ten percent or less, there is no real change for the man on the street and thus no real change to the timeline.
How did America's 13 original states function then? Transportation in the Roman World and that of the 18th century USA was on foot, by horse and by ship, yet in 1788 we had our first election, in 1790 we had our second, and things went well from there. The Telegraph wasn't required, and neigther was the steam train. What the Eartly Americans had which the Romans didn't was a printing press with movable type, they had muskets, better more seaworthy sailing ships, better means of navigating the ocean. Now if states as far North as Massachussetts can remain in the same republic as Georgia, then thats a distance of 1500 miles, so if one can communicate and run a nation that is 1500 miles from north to south, with the primitive means then available in the 1790s then it stands to reason it could also do so from East to West, it just so happens that a circle with a radius of 1500 miles would cover most of the Roman Empire at that time. If the Empire can do it, why not a Republic?

What is so special about an Empire anyway, and why is having a large armed force contrary to the goals of a republic? We manage just fine with our large army. It seems self-defeating to say the only democracies that can exist in the Ancient world were small innocuous ones like Athens. Now if Rome can conduct a census throughout its Empire, why can it not also count votes to determine who gets elected? Seems to me that is not an impossible task for the Romans to do. And if there are too few citizens in Judea, how do we solve that? The Ancient Roman Emperors extended Roman Citizenship many times, so long as most of Judea are non-roman citizens, they will need to be occupied by Roman troops to keep them in the fold. Now if those Roman troops can vote, what do you suppose they would say to their elected representatives about them being here far from home?

If there were more Roman Citizens in Judea, then the Roman troops they raised here would call Judea home and to them it wouldn't be a foreign land that they were occupying. You see if being a Roman Citizen is an exclusive priviledge available to a few, then the price they pay for that priviledge is that they have to make up the bulk of the forces that occupy all the conquered regions whose majority of inhabitants aren't Roman Citizens, spread the franchise though, and you give those living in the outer provinces a reason to remain within the Republic as they would also take part in the choosing of the government of that Republic, and a powerful republic could them protect them from their enemies outside the Republic. Being one of the "big boys" makes you safer, history has proven that, after all how many times was Judea invaded before Rome?
 
As i told u above once Caesar demonstrated how power can be grabed the Republic is doomed...
Plus one thing... Roman army from Julius Caesar and afterwards was loyal to its General not the state... Even if such a constitution was ever put in force (i highly doubt it) there would be several claimants to the Imperial throne from the very next day... All u need is a power hungry General or a General who considers himself the saviour of Rome... Plus the Praetorian Guard which was the defender of the "Imperial system" if u want to establish a republic u have to get rid of these guys first... (at least in the early Principate)
Dont think as a 21st century american... think as a 1st century Roman...
 
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Tom Kalbfus

Banned
As i told u above once Caesar demonstrated how power can be grabed the Republic is doomed...
Plus one thing... Roman army from Julius Caesar and afterwards was loyal to its General not the state... Even if such a constitution was ever put in force (i highly doubt it) there would be several claimants to the Imperial throne from the very next day... All u need is a power hungry General or a General who considers himself the saviour of Rome... Plus the Praetorian Guard which was the defender of the "Imperial system" if u want to establish a republic u have to get rid of these guys first... (at least in the early Principate)
Dont think as a 21st century american... think as a 1st century Roman...
Julius Caesar demonstrated that to us as well, but the United States of America did not fall due to the simple knowledge that a Republic can be overthrown by a tyrant. Being a dictator, means doing anything you want. If no one could oppose Augustus Caesar doing X, then no one could oppose him doing Y.

Augustus Caesar did give lip service to Republican ideals, but what if it wasn't just lip service, what if he really did intend to reform the Republic and he meant it, not just as an excuse to stay in power.
 
Julius Caesar demonstrated that to us as well, but the United States of America did not fall due to the simple knowledge that a Republic can be overthrown by a tyrant. Being a dictator, means doing anything you want. If no one could oppose Augustus Caesar doing X, then no one could oppose him doing Y.

Augustus Caesar did give lip service to Republican ideals, but what if it wasn't just lip service, what if he really did intend to reform the Republic and he meant it, not just as an excuse to stay in power.

Again... Even if Augustus reformed the Republic and renewed it Republic wouldnt have survived for long... All u need is an army and a General who wants power... Even Byzantines considered a republic but the idea was quickly withdrawn in a coup d'etat... If such a scenario is plausible (i still highly doubt it) it has a little more chances in succeeding after 217 AD when Caracalla issued the "Constitutio Antoniniana" but i see Roman Empire sinking into civil war rather than reforming itself into a modern Democracy... And even if it does it wouldnt have resembled to the American one...
 
As i told u above once Caesar demonstrated how power can be grabed the Republic is doomed...
Plus one thing... Roman army from Julius Caesar and afterwards was loyal to its General not the state... Even if such a constitution was ever put in force (i highly doubt it) there would be several claimants to the Imperial throne from the very next day... All u need is a power hungry General or a General who considers himself the saviour of Rome... Plus the Praetorian Guard which was the defender of the "Imperial system" if u want to establish a republic u have to get rid of these guys first... (at least in the early Principate)
Dont think as a 21st century american... think as a 1st century Roman...

To be fair, Caesar didn't demonstrate that, Sulla did. If a constitutional reform was successful in returning payment of the army to the Senate or some other 'republican' body the power of the generals over the armies ends. Since the professional, post-Marian armies depended on their generals winning land and plunder to pay the troops, it was effectively his army because the troops knew where their pay came from. Bringing back the system where the Senate supported the army would remove that threat to republican institutions.
 

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
To be fair, Caesar didn't demonstrate that, Sulla did. If a constitutional reform was successful in returning payment of the army to the Senate or some other 'republican' body the power of the generals over the armies ends. Since the professional, post-Marian armies depended on their generals winning land and plunder to pay the troops, it was effectively his army because the troops knew where their pay came from. Bringing back the system where the Senate supported the army would remove that threat to republican institutions.
What happens to American soldiers if they pillage and plunder?
They get arrested of course. All that's really required is to make theft illegal. I'm sure if those Roman Legionaries acted like bandits in Rome, they'd be held accountable for it. What you really need is for the Emperor to hold troops accountable for theft in foreign and occupied lands, increase their pay and hold officers accountable for the disappline of the men underneath them, that means they arrest soldiers who commit theft. Explain it to thge troops that if they make the locals hate them, they are more likely to have to fight them, and while they may win the engagement anyway, unnecessary battles will cost. Explain to the trooper that having his legion win a battle will do him little good if he's injured or killed in the engagement, as every engagement no matter who winsa has a chance of that, and the more unnecessary battles that are fought, the increased likelyhood that an individual soldier in the legion will become a casuality. Ask that soldier if he'd rather come home with loot or in one piece and which he would prefer.
 
What happens to American soldiers if they pillage and plunder?
They get arrested of course. All that's really required is to make theft illegal. I'm sure if those Roman Legionaries acted like bandits in Rome, they'd be held accountable for it. What you really need is for the Emperor to hold troops accountable for theft in foreign and occupied lands, increase their pay and hold officers accountable for the disappline of the men underneath them, that means they arrest soldiers who commit theft. Explain it to thge troops that if they make the locals hate them, they are more likely to have to fight them, and while they may win the engagement anyway, unnecessary battles will cost. Explain to the trooper that having his legion win a battle will do him little good if he's injured or killed in the engagement, as every engagement no matter who winsa has a chance of that, and the more unnecessary battles that are fought, the increased likelyhood that an individual soldier in the legion will become a casuality. Ask that soldier if he'd rather come home with loot or in one piece and which he would prefer.

Laws about theft and pillaging existed since 3rd century BC (see Lex Aquileia) But this didnt stopped soldiers from being looters etc.
Local people didnt hate the Romans because they were thieves etc. they hated them just because they were there occupying their land... (notable example: Iudaea Province)
Even if someone explains that to the army and they werent thieves etc. local people would still fight them to get rid of Roman authority, Roman taxes etc.
 
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Tom Kalbfus

Banned
Laws about theft and pillaging existed since 3rd century BC (see Lex Aquileia) But this didnt stopped soldiers from being looters etc.
Local people didnt hate the Romans because they were thieves etc. they hated them just because they were there occupying their land... (notable example: Iudaea Province)
Even if someone explains that to the army and they werent thieves etc. local people would still fight them to get rid of Roman authority, Roman taxes etc.
Some might, not all. Some sought the shelter of Roman Civilization against the pillaging of barbarians on the outside. Rome wasn't the only source of tyranny. Some local rulers were quite tyrannical themselves. I understand that some of the battles were necessary to maintain Rome's occupation, but undoubtably some were triggered by perceived wrongs commited by Roman Troops. Looting, and plundering causes unnecessary hatreds in addition to those that already exist, hence leading to unnecessary battles.

The Roman troops can save themselves for the necessary battles that must be fought by avoiding the unnecessary ones that are triggered by plundering. Should be fairly easy for the Roman Government to compensate the troops for their services, its not as if there isn't plenty of land available in Europe at this time.
 
If u think as a 1st century Roman you ll see it yourself... With a constitution like that and an army ready to intervene in serving the General's greed Republic is doomed... In the Roman Army the General and his stuff were responsible of sharing the loot among the soldiers after a campaign... In the event of a Republic and a Senate-controlled army the Senate must outbid the Generals in payment in order to keep the armies under Senate's control... The future of Roman Empire was judged numerous times in money bids from persons who aspired the Purple... As for the constitution i dont see it plausible since there were too few Roman Citizens scattered throughout the Empire so u dont get the right representation and (the US type) Republic would fall quickly to Oligarchy... One solution would be to extend the Roman Citizenship to all the males of the Empire but i believe that it would be too early for that... Rome had tried before in 89 BC with the Lex Plautia Papiria to grant Roman Citizenship to Italians and Latins and failed since they remained enemies of Rome rather than be part of it... Even in 212 with the Constitutio Antoniniana under Caracalla the Principate cannot transform to a real Republic... The reasons Caracalla passed this law were mainly to increase the number of people available to tax and to serve in the legions, as only full citizens could serve as legionaries in the Roman Army. This, however, came at the cost to the auxiliaries, which primarily consisted of non-citizen men.
 

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
If u think as a 1st century Roman you ll see it yourself... With a constitution like that and an army ready to intervene in serving the General's greed Republic is doomed... In the Roman Army the General and his stuff were responsible of sharing the loot among the soldiers after a campaign... In the event of a Republic and a Senate-controlled army the Senate must outbid the Generals in payment in order to keep the armies under Senate's control... The future of Roman Empire was judged numerous times in money bids from persons who aspired the Purple... As for the constitution i dont see it plausible since there were too few Roman Citizens scattered throughout the Empire so u dont get the right representation and (the US type) Republic would fall quickly to Oligarchy... One solution would be to extend the Roman Citizenship to all the males of the Empire but i believe that it would be too early for that... Rome had tried before in 89 BC with the Lex Plautia Papiria to grant Roman Citizenship to Italians and Latins and failed since they remained enemies of Rome rather than be part of it... Even in 212 with the Constitutio Antoniniana under Caracalla the Principate cannot transform to a real Republic... The reasons Caracalla passed this law were mainly to increase the number of people available to tax and to serve in the legions, as only full citizens could serve as legionaries in the Roman Army. This, however, came at the cost to the auxiliaries, which primarily consisted of non-citizen men.
Perhaps a better example would then be the signing of the Magna Carta. 12 century Great Britian and ancient Rome are not that far apart technologically. Perhaps an Emperor and a Roman Parliment ie Senate are what's called for, with the first Emperor Augustus setting the precident by asking permission of the Senate and the house of Plebes to levy taxes. The pleblicite sends representatives to the Common Assembly, and once passed seeks the approval of the Senate. The Emperor is Emperor for life, but he is a limited Constitutional Monarch, and cannot spend money or levy taxes without going to the Common Assembly chosen by male land owning plebes, and then passing the aristocratic Senate to be signed by the Emperor. I'm sure the Senators would be more pleased with that than with what Julius Caesar was doing to them.

Basically it would be a more balanced Empire, and perhaps avoid the absolutist later Emperors who demanded to be worshipped as Gods
 
I cant find any Emperor nor someone else who would be glad to share power with the Senate... It would end to civil war soon enough... After Sulla and Caesar Rome needed to be governed with an iron fist... or else disintegrate into various domains...
 
Perhaps, but there's still one big problem with this suggestion, on top of the whole "the army can overthrow the government" thing. The Romans did not see their state as being a collection of equal territories, as the Americans largely did. They saw Italia, and even more so they saw Roma, and they saw the rest of the Empire. To them, Rome was everything and the Empire was spoils of war. There weren't that many citizen-class people in the provinces, and those who were officially citizens were partly what the fledgling USA would call "landed gentry" and a large part (maybe 80-90%?) men who had served their 25 years to be given citizenship. Those veterans had little interest in voting, they just wanted the benefits to standards of living, but can you imagine the result of those men voting anyway? Imagine if in the present day you accumulated all the eastern seaboard states together in the electoral college as one controlling state, and then gave the rest of the states to the US military to control the voting of. These "voters" are from virtually the same background, with virtually the same life histories, have signed up early as military recruits and all been given virtually the same farming life after they had retired. They're probably only going to exert political will in one of two ways: a militaristic fashion favouring giving soldiers more power (and money), or towards potential legislation which allows them to retire in peace and not be constantly disturbed or taxed by the state. And if you give them too much power, that's going to wreck Roman politics.

Of course, this talk is diverting me off my original course. The citizen base was too small outside of Italy, and even those in Italy viewed Rome as the be-all-and-end-all of politics. You're going to have something like 95% of the Roman "Assembly" being heavily pro-Roman and they are going to react angrily to the provinces having any say - indeed, they will be furious at the provinces even having the right to have a say - in politics, and their legislation will probably be very racist and aimed at alienating the rest of the Empire in a "shut up and do what we tell you to" kind of way. Really you simply cannot give power out to the whole of the Empire like this.

But really, Don Georgio is right. You have to think like a Roman, not an American. Could the Roman Republic/Empire work on the 1775 US model? Heck no it couldn't. There's no way this could work by simply implementing a constitution. Romans of all classes will be enraged by this. You couldn't do this without honestly centuries of slowly, very slowly, tweaking social and political values to a point where society will accept such a system. In the same way, the USA would collapse probably within a week if you tried to convert it with a single legislative bill to operating in the way that, say, the Duchy/Republic of Milan, or the Hunnic Empire, or even the Roman Republic, was governed.
 

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
I cant find any Emperor nor someone else who would be glad to share power with the Senate... It would end to civil war soon enough... After Sulla and Caesar Rome needed to be governed with an iron fist... or else disintegrate into various domains...
King John was not glad to share power with British Parliment either, and it wasn't out of the goodness of his heart that he signed the Magna Carta. As they say, "better half a loaf than none." There were times when Roman Emperors had very short life expectancies, because it became a fight to the death to grab all the power that accumulated at the top. I think if Augustus Caesar had seen this future coming, he would have wanted to limit the power of future Emperors after him, it was after all the Bad Emperors that destroyed the Empire - the key to longevity of the Empire was in limiting the power of bad Emperors to do bad.

Seems to me the best opportunity to reform the Empire is to wait for a time when all the political power resides with one person, and convince that one person to make the change. When you have groups of people and special interests involved, all their opinions average out statistically and they really can't be reasoned with. All groups such as the Senate know is they want to preserve their own power, and in the late Roman Empire, they found a way to preserve their own power without being answerable to the people. Julius Caesar's first instincts were right, he used the opinions of the public as a hammer to push through his reforms through a recaltrant Senate, unfortunately he didn't know how to make this work through any other means than that of a dictatorship.
 

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
Perhaps, but there's still one big problem with this suggestion, on top of the whole "the army can overthrow the government" thing. The Romans did not see their state as being a collection of equal territories, as the Americans largely did. They saw Italia, and even more so they saw Roma, and they saw the rest of the Empire. To them, Rome was everything and the Empire was spoils of war. There weren't that many citizen-class people in the provinces, and those who were officially citizens were partly what the fledgling USA would call "landed gentry" and a large part (maybe 80-90%?) men who had served their 25 years to be given citizenship. Those veterans had little interest in voting, they just wanted the benefits to standards of living, but can you imagine the result of those men voting anyway? Imagine if in the present day you accumulated all the eastern seaboard states together in the electoral college as one controlling state, and then gave the rest of the states to the US military to control the voting of. These "voters" are from virtually the same background, with virtually the same life histories, have signed up early as military recruits and all been given virtually the same farming life after they had retired. They're probably only going to exert political will in one of two ways: a militaristic fashion favouring giving soldiers more power (and money), or towards potential legislation which allows them to retire in peace and not be constantly disturbed or taxed by the state. And if you give them too much power, that's going to wreck Roman politics.

Of course, this talk is diverting me off my original course. The citizen base was too small outside of Italy, and even those in Italy viewed Rome as the be-all-and-end-all of politics. You're going to have something like 95% of the Roman "Assembly" being heavily pro-Roman and they are going to react angrily to the provinces having any say - indeed, they will be furious at the provinces even having the right to have a say - in politics, and their legislation will probably be very racist and aimed at alienating the rest of the Empire in a "shut up and do what we tell you to" kind of way. Really you simply cannot give power out to the whole of the Empire like this.

But really, Don Georgio is right. You have to think like a Roman, not an American. Could the Roman Republic/Empire work on the 1775 US model? Heck no it couldn't. There's no way this could work by simply implementing a constitution. Romans of all classes will be enraged by this. You couldn't do this without honestly centuries of slowly, very slowly, tweaking social and political values to a point where society will accept such a system. In the same way, the USA would collapse probably within a week if you tried to convert it with a single legislative bill to operating in the way that, say, the Duchy/Republic of Milan, or the Hunnic Empire, or even the Roman Republic, was governed.
It is interesting that you say this, because some of the late Roman Emperors were of Germanic Origin, and in the High Middle Ages, there was a German Kingdom that called itself the "Holy Roman Empire", and it had Emperors Otto I, II, and III who sincerely wanted to be Roman Emperors of a newly reconsituted Roman Empire, and they spent alot of their energy trying to conquer the Italian Peninsula so they could legitimately lay claim to being the New Roman Empire. German Emperors eschewing the name of Germany so they could be considered Romans - the very people the original Romans called Barbarians. The Popes were very much against Germans marching into their country, selecting the Pope, and declaring a New Roman Empire, the Italians weren't thrilled at the prospect of Germans trying to rebuild their ancient Roman State, and revisit past Roman Glories. At certain points in their endeavors, these German Emperors almost succeeded, this is almost comical when you think about it, it shows you the attitudes of the Italians and Romans.

Basically what the Romans wanted in the Ancient Period was to "have their cake and eat it too," they wanted to conquer Europe, yet they were opposed to the dissolusion of their culture, yet their very own imperialism made this inevitable. If the Romans were racist, it was a very limited sort of racism if you ask me. Now what's the average Roman citizen going to do when he settles down on a farm in Germany and he meets this very pretty German barbarian girl, blonde haired blue eyes, about 18 years of age and a very aggreeable German chieftain who encourages his daughter to marry this Roman Citizen whose 30 years old. The Roman citizen shrugs, thinks she's very pretty, and they fact that most of the Italian women are still in Italy, he thinks why not marry the blonde German princess, and so he does, she has many of his children who are half German, those children run around grow up and find more Germans to marry. So what happened to the original Roman Soldiers who settled here and who were thrown into the Gene Pool with all those pretty German women? I think over time, the Germans won, their greatest weapon was pretty German women whom the Roman Soldiers could not resist - they married in, had children with the natives and they disappeared. The Romans conquered a continent and they were so thinly spread and through intermarriage, the natives conquered them. The descendents of those Romans still considered themselves Romans and the late Roman Empire dared not ignore them, but by this time Rome was a Christian Empire with an established hereditary Imperial Monarchy, and all the forms followed by the later medeaval feudal states were already established in this late Roman Empire.

I think the Romans were fairly short-sighted to think they could conquer a whole continent, whose people outnumbered them and think that it would not dillute their culture, it would have been wise of them either not to attempt to build an Empire on this scale with so many subject people, or to take into account that they would be building a new nation with the great influx of people into their Empire. For the Emperors, the more subject peoples, the more income, they built roads all throughout their Empire to tie it together, and they could care less how Roman their subjects were, so long as they paid their taxes. Roman citizens did when citizenship came with the vote, when it didn't they could care less. A suitably inclined Roman Emperor of a later period might have redemocratized the Empire. I think Emperor Constantine for example was concerned for his whole Empire, not just the people of Rome. Constantine was born in what is now Spain at any rate - he could care less what the people of Rome thought and he showed his contempt for them, by moving the Capital to Constantinople in Asia Minor.

So at what point do you think that the Emperors grew so powerful that they could write their own Constitution and total disregard the feeling of the proper Romans in Rome itself? I think that's the key. I think if by chance if someone became Emperor and he was more of "George Washington" type rather than a Nero, he could have wrote his own Constitution and no one would have dared oppose him.
 
I cant find any point in Roman history that can divert the TL into a Republic... who could have done it? Claudius? He was under duress from Praetorians... Vespasian? He was interested in establishing his own dynasty... Trajan? He wanted to be Imperator and expand the Empire... Marcus Aurelius? He had a chance to do it and he blew it when he favoured Commodus... After Commodus we enter the crisis of the 3rd century with Republic de facto dead...
Plus Romans didnt had a written constitution... They had what they called the "Mos Maiorum" aka the "custom of ancestors" which was the main guidelines which ruled the Government... The problem with mos maiorum was that it could be interpeted in many ways favouring both Republic and Principate... It depends from what side you re looking it... So Augustus cant rewrite the constitution it would be a sacrilege to violate mos maiorum... He could be interprete it differently though as he did in OTL... And if u just think as 1st century Roman i am 1000% sure that u will think the exact same thing as Augustus...
 
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