TSR-2 Lives Again?
- Thread starter TheMann
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Riain
Banned
The TSR2 would have been among the first generation of warplanes to have a prolonged production and service life if it had gone ahead. The F111 didn't stop production until 1976, and there have been many suggestions to rebuild F111s. Similarly there were plans to build the A6F with F404 turbofans in the 1980s, and planes like the Atlas Cheetah and Phantom 2000 have been built. In that vein then the 80s TSR2 isn't too out of the question as a technologoal project, it was certainly fast, long ranged and aerodynamically advanced enough. But with the Tornado in the pipeline, politically it didn't have a chance.
I hate to revive this very old subject, but if the RAF had started to operate the TSR.2 from 1967 on, there would have been one customer that might have gotten interest, in my opinion: the United States Air Force.
Here's the reason why: in 1967, the F-111 was experiencing a lot of development problems, especially with the somewhat underpowered TF30 engine and the severe compressor stalls from the F-111A intake design, not to mention issues with the wingbox and horizontal stabilizers. In 1967, the operational TSR.2 would have pretty much worked out its development issues, and would have been very attractive to the USAF as an interdiction strike plane operating from bases in the UK against potential targets behind the Iron Curtain. We could have ended up with a situation akin to the early 1950's--the TSR.2 replaces the F-111 like the English Electric Canberra replaced the failed Martin XB-51. The USAF versions would originally use a licensed version of the Olympus 320 engine, but would likely switch to a GE F101 variant of similar engine thrust but lower fuel burn. And the plane probably wouldn't be replaced until the early 2000's by the F-15E Strike Eagle.
Here's the reason why: in 1967, the F-111 was experiencing a lot of development problems, especially with the somewhat underpowered TF30 engine and the severe compressor stalls from the F-111A intake design, not to mention issues with the wingbox and horizontal stabilizers. In 1967, the operational TSR.2 would have pretty much worked out its development issues, and would have been very attractive to the USAF as an interdiction strike plane operating from bases in the UK against potential targets behind the Iron Curtain. We could have ended up with a situation akin to the early 1950's--the TSR.2 replaces the F-111 like the English Electric Canberra replaced the failed Martin XB-51. The USAF versions would originally use a licensed version of the Olympus 320 engine, but would likely switch to a GE F101 variant of similar engine thrust but lower fuel burn. And the plane probably wouldn't be replaced until the early 2000's by the F-15E Strike Eagle.
Maybe something like this could lead to a joint partnership between the USAF-BAC? This could perhaps butterfly the F-35 or at least replace it with something more manageable * COUGH Typhoon COUGH COUGH*
A little artwork, Its not mine, for you all.
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Riain
Banned
1967 is a bit early for the TSR2, 1969 would be closer to the mark.
Before anyone pipes up how Britain couldn't afford it; F111K cost Britain 46 million pounds before cancellation, AFVG was designed, Jaguar was developed as an advanced tactical strike aircraft and 200 purchased, 118 F4M were purchased for tactical attack, 46 Buccaneer were purchased for strike, Britain paid for 42% of Tornado development and purchased 228 and the RAF kept the Vulcan in service for tactical strike throughout the 70s. This ends up being a lot of money, plenty to finish the development of the TSR2 and fund a prolonged production run.
Before anyone pipes up how Britain couldn't afford it; F111K cost Britain 46 million pounds before cancellation, AFVG was designed, Jaguar was developed as an advanced tactical strike aircraft and 200 purchased, 118 F4M were purchased for tactical attack, 46 Buccaneer were purchased for strike, Britain paid for 42% of Tornado development and purchased 228 and the RAF kept the Vulcan in service for tactical strike throughout the 70s. This ends up being a lot of money, plenty to finish the development of the TSR2 and fund a prolonged production run.
NothingNow
Banned
This assumes the USAF doesn't just give up and fit the F-111 with a re-imported version of the RM8, the Spey Mk.202, AR 168R or some other known-good turbofan instead of buying a foreign developed aircraft.
Although the Olympus Mk.320 could possibly be adopted for the F-111 with licensed production in the US, though the F-111 would suffer a range penalty.
Ancientone
Banned
The resuscitation of the TSR-2 in the 1980s was a pipe-dream by a nutter named Christopher de Vere and was never a serious proposition and was a private endevour not a government one. In any case, all of the tools, jigs and components, including then state-of-the-art, CAD programs were destroyed on the orders of Whitehall. While two unfinished shell airframes were retained for museum exhibition, completed ones, including the only flying version were smashed to bits or used for target practice.
This peculiar action, so similar to the fate of the Avro Arrow, feeds a number of conspiracy theories--that of course may not be conspiracies at all. Possibly, like Avro Canada, technical information had been passed to the Soviets. Harold Wilson, Prime Minister at the time, had had a finger in sabotaging the British aviation industry before and was suspected of being a Soviet Asset until he died. Sir Solly Zuckerman, a zoologist by training, was scientific advisor to the government and no friend of British industry was an opponent of the aircraft.
A joint venture with a US manufacturer was an impossibility. Almost every promising British civil and military design was offered at some time as a joint venture with a US manufacturer or the US military and after receiving all available information-the US side declined. In fact during the 1950s and 1960s the US Aviation industry actively campaigned and lobbied against even intra-European projects. After 1945 the US only adopted the Canberra and the Harrier and then only because of the insistence of individual far-sighted US officers.
This peculiar action, so similar to the fate of the Avro Arrow, feeds a number of conspiracy theories--that of course may not be conspiracies at all. Possibly, like Avro Canada, technical information had been passed to the Soviets. Harold Wilson, Prime Minister at the time, had had a finger in sabotaging the British aviation industry before and was suspected of being a Soviet Asset until he died. Sir Solly Zuckerman, a zoologist by training, was scientific advisor to the government and no friend of British industry was an opponent of the aircraft.
A joint venture with a US manufacturer was an impossibility. Almost every promising British civil and military design was offered at some time as a joint venture with a US manufacturer or the US military and after receiving all available information-the US side declined. In fact during the 1950s and 1960s the US Aviation industry actively campaigned and lobbied against even intra-European projects. After 1945 the US only adopted the Canberra and the Harrier and then only because of the insistence of individual far-sighted US officers.
By the way, if the USAF had adopted the TSR.2, there would have been one change: the original drogue-and-probe refueling system would be replaced a Flying Boom receptacle to make it compatible with USAF's huge KC-135 fleet.
How long would it have stayed in USAF service? Probably until the the F-15E Strike Eagle became available in the early 2000's. But an electronic warfare version--akin to the EF-111A Raven in the OTL--would probably still be in service.
How long would it have stayed in USAF service? Probably until the the F-15E Strike Eagle became available in the early 2000's. But an electronic warfare version--akin to the EF-111A Raven in the OTL--would probably still be in service.
The Strike Eagle served in Desert Storm, unless you mean to say that its development would have been pushed back by the acquisition of the TSR-2.
Riain
Banned
A more successful F111 would delay the F15E, or maybe even eliminate it altogether. The fits and starts nature of F111 development and production meant that the USAF didn't get the 1000+ that they wanted and of those that they did get many were underperforming from a reliablity point of view.
True. The F-15 would have stay primarily an interceptor in USAF service until the sheer age of the American-operated TSR.2 derivative meant its retirement by the end of the 20th Century. As such, the F-15E Strike Eagle would have a later development cycle, and it's only in the early 2000's that the switch to the F-15E would have begun in earnest.
Not the first time one sees Zuckermans name in connections with weapons selection.
The Harrier is known. What was the story behind the Canberra. All I know is Martin Co had something to do with it.
Riain
Banned
There was a bit of a demonstration fly-off between the Martin XB 51 where the XB 51 did two high speed passes but the Canberra did a full aerobatic display. The Canberra also had longer range and was only slightly slower than the XB 51 so was selected as the winner and entered production as the B 57, the Martin company building them in a twist of irony.
The TSR-2 could have been revived?!
Now, here's the wild one......what would have come of it if it had been revived and entered RAF service in, say, 1985-86?
The problem with TSR-2 was the same as with most post 1950's weapons projects, namely the time it took to get the things into service.
Costs kept spiralling out of control and there was and is a problem with maintaining a grip on these things.
OTL the TSR-2 would probably not have entered service until 1970/71 and would have cost a small fortune.
Reviving the project in the 80's would take many years. The prototype needs to be rebuilt, it needs to make numerous test flights and then the electronics need to be developed. Then you need to get it into production and then entering service.
Being optimistic the prototype isn't flying until 1986 but more likely later and then after modifications and further tests the cold war ends.
Orders are cut dramatically and you would be lucky if the plane equips one squadron before being withdrawn in another series of peace dividend cutbacks.
Pangur
Donor
Going somewhat of topic. Would it have been possible to have got the TSR2 into production if rather than can the project in 1965 they put it on hold until 1970/71? Was there anything useful that could have reused/epurposed from Concorde?