A Very British Coup d'etat

Conspiracy theory have fraction of truth

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like the Harold Wilson conspiracy theories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Wilson_conspiracy_theories

in short
in 1968 there were rumors that primeminister Harold Wilson (Labour) was a KGB Agent
(MI5 had received information that the Labour Party had been infiltrate by the KGB)

So Wat If MI5 give this information to military so they can make a Coup d'etat ?
and get rid Labour leaders and and trade unionists !

how gona Great Britain develop under Military dictatorship ?

Michel Van said:

like the Harold Wilson conspiracy theories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Wilson_conspiracy_theories

in short
in 1968 there were rumors that primeminister Harold Wilson (Labour) was a KGB Agent
(MI5 had received information that the Labour Party had been infiltrate by the KGB)

So Wat If MI5 give this information to military so they can make a Coup d'etat ?
and get rid Labour leaders and and trade unionists !

how gona Great Britain develop under Military dictatorship ?

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Search through my previous posts; I made a map in a past map thread...

RJGFox said:

Search through my previous posts; I made a map in a past map thread...

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found it Thanks



i like the 1968 Coup d'etat, because it chance some Programs
like TSR-2 Bomber, RAF-Blue Streak and Black Arrow Rockets and ELDO

the Reasion for the Coup
1. to stop Labour (so posted infiltrate by the KGB ) from making Politics
Laybour made very disastrous decisions like cancellation TSR-2, ELDO Program

2. Brake the power of trade union (so posted infiltrate by the KGB )
the Union strike crippled the country (until Margaret Thatcher brake them in 1980s)

3. Restore Law and Order in UK, specifically Northern Ireland

4. limitation of freedom of the press
last one because of publish of scandals with Political impacts and other Indiscretion.

so the military will delete decision made by Labour like TRS-2
(advance Bomber had replace the V-bombers, but Labour cancel it
because "it's british" and try to buy the U.S. F-111 because "better and cheaper"
but cancel that also)
the TRS-2 needed satellite for navigation and communication
best launch by UK indigenous rocket vehicle like Blue Streak
back in 1968 Labour minister try to kill all of UK Space program

some good reasion for Coup d'etat by UK military

but will this Military dictatorship beneficial for UK ?
like "Thatcherism" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thatcherism

or gona be Union Kingdom were
Bloody Sundays means shoting of civil rights protesters in UK citys
Punk is a resistance movement
Dr Who is canceld because "subversive criticism on new Goverment"
and Europe is confronting with british boatpeople

The Army in general in, and likely always has been, fairly right wing, and I know for a fact that many military officers were horrified by both the state of the country and the direction in which it seemed to be going in the late '60's and '70's.
However I believe that '68 is too early. In common with having fairly strong views on the correct state of society, the Army as a corporate body has a strong taboo against political involvement. What it needs to overcome that taboo and stage a coup is for the crucial figures in the Forces to feel that political channels are going to be insufficient to solve the problem.
The point where that might have become true was after the Winter of Discontent, not in the late '60s.
However OTL the Conservative party under Thatcher was a very credible alternative, waiting in the wings for the next election.
So if you want to make a British Coup credible, you have to somehow eliminate the Tory Party as contenders in the election of 1979. I don't know how you could do that.

A 1968 coup faces the same problem with the Tory party being able to offer a legitimate route for change to the political system, in addition to a good deal less sentiment demanding drastic change in the system as a whole. Unless you believe you can induce the Establishment to panic over the allegation of a single KGB mole in government...or that CGS would launch a coup over defence procurement (!?) it's fairly ASB.

Edinburgh wouldn't be a hotspot of unrest against a military coup, up until the 80s it was a Tory city (4 out of 7 of its MPs were Conservative, generally speaking). Glasgow is far more likely to be one.

Other than that you've got the problem that Incognita mentioned. Perhaps a more violent NUM strike in 1973, turning into a General Strike that topples the Heath Government? Labour wins the election, the Tories are weakened and disunited, Wilson is deposed by left wingers (the public facade is that he's retiring due to health problems), and the Army gets jittery once the Government starts to push ahead with a unilateralist agenda. BTW, it would seem to me that an outright military coup is unlikely, though not impossible.

What would have been the consequences of military coup and how would the British public react? What would be any real consequences for the political parties ?

thor2006 said:

What would have been the consequences of military coup and how would the British public react? What would be any real consequences for the political parties ?

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it would be the end of Labour party (so long during dicaturship)
much Jubilee by the Conservative Tory

but how gone britsh royal famliy react ?
officially a neutral posture towards the situation ?

Europe gona have mix raction
Portugal and Spain dicators made congratulations

Germany goverment condemn the coup
also Belgium, Netherland, Luxemburg and Italy

France gona be intresthing case
will Charles de Gaulle condemn them or send congratulations telegram ?

the European Economic Community
will take Hypokrit attitude to Coup

officially condemn it, but intern they work with Military dictatorship
to Integration of Britain in ECC (and ELDO)

wat Labour was again it back in 1968

Incognitia said:

The Army in general in, and likely always has been, fairly right wing, and I know for a fact that many military officers were horrified by both the state of the country and the direction in which it seemed to be going in the late '60's and '70's.

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The British Army I served in in the Mid 80's was not right wing The avrage squaddie is working class and if supported any political party it was labour. rember 45 I would not have accepted any orders to overthrow the Govt and I would have done my best to stop it as would others. Rember the last time this happend would have been the Curragh Mutiny and that was Snr officers only not rank and file. I find the idea that the British armed forces would stage a coup at any time in the late 20th cen as ASB

Moglwi said:

I find the idea that the British armed forces would stage a coup at any time in the late 20th cen as ASB

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Incognitia said:

Unless you believe you can induce the Establishment to panic over the allegation of a single KGB mole in government...or that CGS would launch a coup over defence procurement (!?) it's fairly ASB.

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This sounds about right. Even if that weren't the case I don't know why the OP assumes that the brasshats move against the constitutional arrangements for the first time in nearly three centuries based on a rumour.

Read the work of sixties Tory journalist Chapman Pincher and you'll find that the anti-communist hawks generally thought Wilson was on their side (because he was--he was part of British Labour's pro-NATO tradition).

So we are left with the conundrum that a UK coup would only be mounted to arrest economic decline, while of course said coup would also actually pose a terrible threat to the British economy. Billions of dollars in foreign capital would leave the country.

Wherever the military try to run a country they are usually incapable of fighting wars i.e the Greek regime when Cyprus was invaded or the Argentinian Junta. TSR2 Black Arrow etc had already been cancelled by 1968. Given the volatile state of the world in 1968 there would have been riots and strikes. Pretty soon there would have been a government that would have made the then unpopylar Wilson government popular. It was loosing by election after by election and was to all intents and purposes on the way out anyway.

1974-5 seems a possibly more likely time but given the exercise of union power in the miners strike, any junta would have faced the prospect of a general strike and the army was incapable of maintaining electricity supplies in Northern Ireland never mind the mainland.

As it turned out, a Labour government gradually moved Britain from the brink to relative stability whilst the establishment prepared itself to tackle union power etc.

Far from being an agent of the Kremlin, Wilson preserved the existing order and his trade contacts with Russia were to Britain's advantage.

If a government turns out to be a disaster then it is going to get kicked out at the next election anyway so why take the law into your own hands. There is also the question of how the Queen would have reacted to a coup. Servicemen are required to give an oath of allegiance and any movement away from a constitutional monarchy would probably result in Britain becoming a republic in the long run. Coups are not party of the British tradition

Assuming that for whatever reason enough of the Army/etc took this step, what would the US forces stationed in the UK do? It is possible the responsible remanents of the Government would call upon aid from allies and the US would be the most obvious given their proximity

Julius Vogel said:

Assuming that for whatever reason enough of the Army/etc took this step, what would the US forces stationed in the UK do? It is possible the responsible remanents of the Government would call upon aid from allies and the US would be the most obvious given their proximity

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I don't think that the USA will shed many tears,outside of the violation of British democracy, for the ousting of a obvious leftist government. Didn't the USA prefer at that time a right wing government over a left wing one?
So I don't think that the USA will do anything but give recognition to the military junta that will rule Britain after the coup.

thor2006 said:

I don't think that the USA will shed many tears,outside of the violation of British democracy, for the ousting of a obvious leftist government. Didn't the USA prefer at that time a right wing government over a left wing one?
So I don't think that the USA will do anything but give recognition to the military junta that will rule Britain after the coup.

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Well, if the ASBish scenario posited were to take place in the first half of 1968, then I think Hubert Horatio Humphrey, Eugene McCarthy, and Robert Fitzgerald Kennedy might all have reason to get very publicly upset about the events in Britain.

Of course you could dismiss this as them merely pandering to an 'obvious leftist' Democratic primary electorate.

Wait, why am I taking this thing seriously? It's not like I'm in Europe or anything...

Moglwi said:

The British Army I served in in the Mid 80's was not right wing The avrage squaddie is working class and if supported any political party it was labour. rember 45 I would not have accepted any orders to overthrow the Govt and I would have done my best to stop it as would others. Rember the last time this happend would have been the Curragh Mutiny and that was Snr officers only not rank and file. I find the idea that the British armed forces would stage a coup at any time in the late 20th cen as ASB

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Yep, I agree with you on the ASB.
I also accept that most of the squaddies voted Labour. I was wrong in saying the Army was right wing, I meant of course to say the officer corps was.

thor2006 said:

I don't think that the USA will shed many tears,outside of the violation of British democracy, for the ousting of a obvious leftist government. Didn't the USA prefer at that time a right wing government over a left wing one?
So I don't think that the USA will do anything but give recognition to the military junta that will rule Britain after the coup.

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Not seeing it. US recognition for an unconstitutional coup, in an established democracy and key ally? *Especially* given that support for the coup would most likely be shaky.
I expect that there would be a firm US pressure to return to an elected government as soon as possible, probably with a ban on arms exports until that point.

Magniac said:

Well, if the ASBish scenario posited were to take place in the first half of 1968, then I think Hubert Horatio Humphrey, Eugene McCarthy, and Robert Fitzgerald Kennedy might all have reason to get very publicly upset about the events in Britain.

Of course you could dismiss this as them merely pandering to an 'obvious leftist' Democratic primary electorate.

Wait, why am I taking this thing seriously? It's not like I'm in Europe or anything...

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Hard to assume that US would act in similar fashion here as to other coups, imo. A coup in Britain would be distinguished for several reasons - size of ally, importance of ally (WW2/NATO/etc), language/culture. Would also depend on how popular the coup was at home - perhaps if the coup was widely acclaimed by the people then neighbours or allies would accept it on the basis of that. If the coup is in part challenged by the responsible Government or other important sectors of the country then the allies/neighbours might support that fightback.

On a related note - I wonder how the US/UK/etc would react to a proper military coup in any of the Old Commonwealth - say Australia, NZ or Canada, post WW2. Would it be treated just like any other coup, or are White English speakers not allowed to do this kind of thing?

If MI5 do decide to leak, why not go to the press and have the democratic process run it's course?

Berra said:

If MI5 do decide to leak, why not go to the press and have the democratic process run it's course?

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The only relevant counter-argument is that the Establishment doesn't really accept The People as being...helpful.
On the contrary, they accept democracy merely because it keeps the people quiet (the old saw 'if voting changed anything it'd be outlawed').
However, I'm not sure I accept this argument, and it's very hard to gather evidence.
Certainly my belief would be that most people (if only through arrogance) generally believe that the population as a whole agree with them. Therefore, if MI5 or CGS (or whoever) had real evidence of subversion of the government they would broadcast it in the hope of bringing down the government. I.e. if they had evidence that the government was compromised by the KGB, they would expect the legendary Man on the Clapham Omnibus to shun the government immediately.
I find this quite likely. My view is that Old Labour was a fairly christian socialism, that was quite distinct from Marxism-Leninism. Many Labour voters were fairly small-c conservative, (as shown by Thatcher winning so many of them around) and so the balance of opinion in the country, while not unaccepting of generally left wing policies were highly against communism on the Soviet model.
So yep, publication seems likely.

Hi, the map of resisting areas should include the South/West Yorkshire, and Kent coalfields (perhaps even the scabby Nottinghamshire bastards).

I disagree with those who say Edinburgh shouldn't be included, the surrounding areas would be anti-coup, but Glasgow would be a hotbed of resistence. The whole central belt of Scotland should be included, and possibly Harris and Lewis too.

Julius Vogel said:

On a related note - I wonder how the US/UK/etc would react to a proper military coup in any of the Old Commonwealth - say Australia, NZ or Canada, post WW2. Would it be treated just like any other coup, or are White English speakers not allowed to do this kind of thing?

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I wonder if the reaction to Rhodesia's UDI provides any sort of guide?