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Old March 19th, 2005, 11:45 PM
Othniel Othniel is offline
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13 colonies become four nations.

With the weaking of the Articles of Confederation members of the Annipolis Convention sent out the world for a Constutional convention. In this TL Georgia, and the Carolinas do not except the invintation along with Rhode Island (whom didn't originally). I want America to look like a german federation like the one Napelon put together. The Question is if New York, New Jersy, Delaware, Pensylvania, Virgina, Maryland, and Vermont make up the Unitied States, what happens afterwords? The Carolinas rejoin, and Georgia ends up with Florida, plus the a New England Confederation made of New Hampshire, RI, Mass, and Conn....I should make a map....
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Old March 19th, 2005, 11:57 PM
Nicole Nicole is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Othniel
With the weaking of the Articles of Confederation members of the Annipolis Convention sent out the world for a Constutional convention. In this TL Georgia, and the Carolinas do not except the invintation along with Rhode Island (whom didn't originally). I want America to look like a german federation like the one Napelon put together. The Question is if New York, New Jersy, Delaware, Pensylvania, Virgina, Maryland, and Vermont make up the Unitied States, what happens afterwords? The Carolinas rejoin, and Georgia ends up with Florida, plus the a New England Confederation made of New Hampshire, RI, Mass, and Conn....I should make a map....
Why does Vermont join? If there isn't one strong, united America to get it to join, then I assume some sort of New York-Vermont War may happen. I think Vermont, being defensible terrain, has the advantage here. After such a "Vermont War of Independence", it may decide simply to stay that way, or join NE. Your New England confederation seems likely though.
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Old March 20th, 2005, 12:32 AM
Othniel Othniel is offline
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The economic benfits of the US with Virgina envolved allows them more prevenlce, especially with the south deciling union. A map, if it pleases you.
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Old March 20th, 2005, 01:16 AM
Othniel Othniel is offline
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Well besides Michigan being British at the time, what other mistakes did I make? I really don't think Vermont would be able to maintain independance. I believe that the New England Confederation would have strong ties to France, while Georgia would keep normal ties with GB. The Carolinas are in a unquie postion to hold their own, but whom would get leadership early on? Virgina, Penn., and NY would tend to turn out more presidnets I think. Just for a moment asume this happend. France is in a more influential postion in this timeline, whilest Spainish colonies would also tend to be more substantial. In fact I see no Mexican-American War.
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Old March 20th, 2005, 01:19 AM
Nicole Nicole is offline
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Originally Posted by Othniel
Well besides Michigan being British at the time, what other mistakes did I make? I really don't think Vermont would be able to maintain independance. I believe that the New England Confederation would have strong ties to France, while Georgia would keep normal ties with GB. The Carolinas are in a unquie postion to hold their own, but whom would get leadership early on? Virgina, Penn., and NY would tend to turn out more presidnets I think. Just for a moment asume this happend. France is in a more influential postion in this timeline, whilest Spainish colonies would also tend to be more substantial. In fact I see no Mexican-American War.
I think that New England would be connected to Great Britain. Wasn't it the New England merchants who wanted trade with Britain, while more the Democratic-Republican Party in the South that liked France?
And personally, though I agree that Vermont staying independent may be implausible, I think they would be more drawn to New England, though that's mostly my opinion.
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Old March 20th, 2005, 01:30 AM
Othniel Othniel is offline
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Originally Posted by Imajin
I think that New England would be connected to Great Britain. Wasn't it the New England merchants who wanted trade with Britain, while more the Democratic-Republican Party in the South that liked France?
And personally, though I agree that Vermont staying independent may be implausible, I think they would be more drawn to New England, though that's mostly my opinion.
New England doesn't have the pure agricultural advantage that Virgina provides the union. I think they may be imbittered against Britain because most of the fighting happened on their soil. In the end they'd propably deal with both. Maybe in this timeline they almost covinced Newfoundland to join in the rebellion, and then Britain took it back, and wasn't willing to give it it's freedom. As a result, many rebels migrated down south to join the Revolution. This influx of settlers stirred New England to deal with the French, or maybe I should bring Rebel sympathies in Quebec, and have a strong portion of French-speakers help out to give them more of an inclination to deal with the French. I'm trying to paint New England, or prehaps the Native Americans into a confederation much like the German one Nap. set up. I figured this would take many disorganised American Goverments under the Articles of Confederation. I'm not sure about that though, I
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Old March 20th, 2005, 01:41 AM
Nicole Nicole is offline
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New England doesn't have the pure agricultural advantage that Virgina provides the union.
But culturally, the Vermonters were similar in many ways to the New Englanders. In fact, the Vermont Republic was originally called "New Connecticut". I don't see why a lot of cotton farming down south is going to convince the Vermonters to join the USA.
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Old March 20th, 2005, 02:18 AM
Othniel Othniel is offline
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Originally Posted by Imajin
But culturally, the Vermonters were similar in many ways to the New Englanders. In fact, the Vermont Republic was originally called "New Connecticut". I don't see why a lot of cotton farming down south is going to convince the Vermonters to join the USA.
George Washinton maybe? A chance to be a pain in New Yorks rear, maybe NH just pissed them off...
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Old March 20th, 2005, 02:26 AM
Aussey Aussey is offline
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1. When is the time of this map? If not 2005, thats ok....
2. I see an independent Louisiana by 2005
3. Formal incoproration of US an Caroline Terr. into their nations.
4. Kentucky has ALWAYS been a part of Virginia...why does it belong to Caroline all of a sudden....I like it. Possibly a Caroline, Georgia, etc. British Southern Dominion....Techniclly, Virginia was a Dominion of the Empire, as King CHarles II made the colony a Dominion after Virginian support of the Loyalist during the English Civil War...
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Old March 20th, 2005, 03:04 AM
Othniel Othniel is offline
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The year is 1809. Carolina buys Kentucky from the USA for their westward expansion. West Florida is Fortified to the French after the war, Georgia becomes heavily envoled with them. Vermont is split gets split in a war between the USA, and the NEC.
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Old March 20th, 2005, 03:06 AM
Aussey Aussey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Othniel
The year is 1809. Carolina buys Kentucky from the USA for their westward expansion. West Florida is Fortified to the French after the war, Georgia becomes heavily envoled with them. Vermont is split gets split in a war between the USA, and the NEC.
Sounds good, but I think the outline of British colonies/provinces in Canada and Oregon should be WAY different...I see Virginia,Caroline,Georgia,Florida being a British Southern Dominion, but whatever...Mainly just focus on British provincial borders for 1809
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Old March 20th, 2005, 03:12 AM
Othniel Othniel is offline
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No, see Georgia did particpate in the American Revolution, but it decided to adhear to the Articals of Federation instead of going with the Constution, whilest the Carolinas somehow manged to be brought back together. Prehaps the North started threatening to bring people back in by force. I had just poseted the map for the east coast, French territories, and Spanish territories...I hadn't messed with the Brits stuff...although having Newfoundland join the NEC would be intresting...maybe I'll fix that...
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Old March 20th, 2005, 03:13 AM
Aussey Aussey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Othniel
No, see Georgia did particpate in the American Revolution, but it decided to adhear to the Articals of Federation instead of going with the Constution, whilest the Carolinas somehow manged to be brought back together. Prehaps the North started threatening to bring people back in by force. I had just poseted the map for the east coast, French territories, and Spanish territories...I hadn't messed with the Brits stuff...although having Newfoundland join the NEC would be intresting...maybe I'll fix that...
Ok...but I believe it'd be the South Carolinans threatning to bring back by force...
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Old March 20th, 2005, 03:24 AM
Othniel Othniel is offline
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I'm still trying to figure out what unified them. This is preparing to be one of the plane in GS. I think I want this timeline to have Nap, sent to the New England Confed as his exile or maybe it should be West Florida. Dang I need to organize this better.
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Old March 20th, 2005, 04:38 AM
Othniel Othniel is offline
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Russia will get British Columbia and shared custody of Oregon. (as well as Alaska)
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Old March 20th, 2005, 04:55 AM
chrispi chrispi is offline
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As someone who also posted an AH where the 13 colonies become four nations (New England, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Florida,) may I make a few comments?

1) The Mason-Dixon Line is a strong force even in 1776, so a union of Virginia with Pennsylvania and New York will be fraught with problems, most likely ending up in a divorce.

2) I would expect the Carolinas to remain split (with tobacco-rich NC joining Virginia and SC joining rice- and indigo-rich Georgia/Florida.)

3) I'm sure that the US and Carolinian Territories will soon demand independence. (How do the nations of Appalachia and Lacustria sound? )

4) You may want to reconsider using OTL Canadian provincial boundaries. Too many coincidences here.

5) I wager that a devastating civil war amongst the Anglophone North Americans limited their territorial growth. Even so, I would still wager that British North America would still snatch a good deal of northern Louisiana for itself (at least enough for a road to connect Canada with Oregon through South Pass.)
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Old March 20th, 2005, 05:09 AM
Othniel Othniel is offline
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1st off, that map is faulty, so forgive me for anything North of the Border.
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Originally Posted by chrispi
As someone who also posted an AH where the 13 colonies become four nations (New England, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Florida,) may I make a few comments?

1) The Mason-Dixon Line is a strong force even in 1776, so a union of Virginia with Pennsylvania and New York will be fraught with problems, most likely ending up in a divorce.
Give me something proving that, I see Penn and Virgina as having many simularities idealogically. Besides Maryland should be below that line in the old timeline.
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2) I would expect the Carolinas to remain split (with tobacco-rich NC joining Virginia and SC joining rice- and indigo-rich Georgia/Florida.)
Ah, but they have common background in more than name. I could see them having a Duelist Union and allience especially if threatened by the North or Georgia.
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3) I'm sure that the US and Carolinian Territories will soon demand independence. (How do the nations of Appalachia and Lacustria sound? )
Carolina, yes. I see a more smaller states joining the union through that group of various Territories.
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4) You may want to reconsider using OTL Canadian provincial boundaries. Too many coincidences here.
I agree, that is why I say the map is faulty.
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5) I wager that a devastating civil war amongst the Anglophone North Americans limited their territorial growth. Even so, I would still wager that British North America would still snatch a good deal of northern Louisiana for itself (at least enough for a road to connect Canada with Oregon through South Pass.)
I see many things not holding together, especially in the British North. You may see more indpendance than what is good for a world.
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Old March 20th, 2005, 06:21 AM
Othniel Othniel is offline
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Anbody else wish to try me logic, or all you just waiting for a timeline?
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Old March 20th, 2005, 06:57 AM
David S Poepoe David S Poepoe is offline
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The sale of OTL Kentucky to the Carolinas doesn't hold water. Doesn't Virginia have aspirations to westward expansion? Access to the Ohio River is important, and its likely that French control over New Orleans will always be a unifiying subject between the American nations.

The POD must be much earlier since Florida was a Spanish possession following the American Revolutionary War - unless somehow the Spanish sold it off for no particular reason (which is a pretty terrible plot device making too many appearances in ATLs). Also the French border in OTL Alabama and Mississippi is further south than in your map. So basically the northern portion of Georgia would extend to the Mississippi.

As pointed out New England has many more connections with Britain, than with France. They are both seafaring merchant societies.
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Old March 20th, 2005, 07:04 AM
Othniel Othniel is offline
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Well for now on this is my OTL reference map. Nobody ever explained how Florida went back to Spain....
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