Plausibility check: Catholicism and Judaism

Well, for a long time, I've always wanted to do a TL. I've been reading on this site for quite a while, and today at church an idea struck me. What are the chances of a Pope in the 1300s having very good relations with jews throughout his life and preaching tolerance? I was hoping to have the POD being that a charismatic Pope is pro-Jewish tolerance and does several great deeds and is considered one of the better Popes of history and thus revered by catholics, with the butterflies being, jews are tolerated by most catholics except very radical ones due to that Pope's views on Jews, Jews are respected and given equal treatment as any catholic in Poland(from what I know, Poland was very tolerant, but maybe butterflies kick it up a notch?) and only the Muslims are expelled from Spain, not jews. Of course, any other possible butterflies?(Russia, Middle East?, Germany) Is this idea plausible? Why or why not? Thank you for your help.

As a second post, and to add some information, Pope Martin V seems a great candidate Pope to use for this POD. He reinstated the rights of Jews that Antipope Benedict XIII took away from them(among other things). He was born to a prominent Italian family, and it wouldn't be hard to imagine him meeting influential Jewish men in his life, would it? Especially early on, when Italy still had a decent amount of Jews. His successor, Eugenius IV, took away the Jew's rights and treated them like Benedict XIII before him, maybe with a positive legacy of Martin V, and Benedict lets slip what his opinions are of what to do about Jews, this could result in another Pope coming to power that is atleast content with the status quo of Jews during Martin V's reign?

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Martin_V and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_in_Italy#Antipope_Benedict_XIII

EDIT: Is this too late a POD to influence Isabella and/or Ferdinard to not expel the Jews?

EDIT2: Here is my POD. Tell me what you think, does it sound realistic? Could the papal armies truly make enough of a difference to have the Ottomans fail in the 1430s?

POD: Martin V’s life is filled with encounters with Jews being generous, positive, friendly, and while the Pope keeps his fondness and friendship with Jews for the most part quiet, he does speak out for tolerance towards Jews, referring to them as the brothers who have yet to see Christ’s glory, but that one day will(his pretext for religious tolerance and equality for Jews without getting lynched himself). Pope Martin V raises papal chancery taxes to fund modernization of the papal army and launches a war against the Ottomans when Venice declares war and rallies England, Aragon, and Austria to send troops to aid the Hungarians, Venetians, and Serbs against the Ottomans in 1422 and drives the Ottomans southeast. Due to his military achievements, Pope Martin V’s views on tolerance of the Jews become very influential and many consider it heresy to doubt their beloved Pope's opinion that Jews will eventually convert soon after and that they should be encouraged, yet not segregated, to join catholicism(this is not enforced or even really attempted), and especially after his death, and this leads to a different pope being elected that continues Martin V’s policy towards the Jews, albeit not as pro-Jew as his predecessor, he continues to maintain this policy throughout his reign, and so on, with few bumps in the way. These butterflies that occur, apart from Ottoman expansion getting curb stomped for a bit, are that Beatrix De Silva, who influenced Isabella of Castile’s religious views, follows Martin V’s views of Jewish acceptance and this affects Isabella, and thus, no Jews are expelled from Spain, only Muslims. Other butterflies are that Jews gain positions of power in Poland-Lithuania and either it takes twice as long for Poland to fall as a state or that they are gradually reduced in territory but never fall fully to any of their neighbors. Long term butterflies, no Holocaust and who knows what may happen with Palestine? Convenient butterflies means Martin V lives till 1935(to give enough time for his views to sink in)

The problem with this is that it removes some of the usefulness of Jews for the European nobility; an administrator class that could never hope to wield power on their own and that you could always rob from and expel if they tried to call in your debts is just too good to give up without a fight. And you'd almost certainly have a schism over how to treat the Jews within the Catholic hierarchy itself, given that many of the cardinals are likely to disagree with the Pope's ideas about tolerance.

Also, as far as England, Aragon and Austria doing anything about the Ottomans in 1422, England is too far away, Aragon is too concerned with the ongoing Reconquista and its own interests in Italy, and Austria is more likely to want the Ottomans to win and thus weaken Venice and Hungary. So the Pope only has his troops to play with. Chances are that they get curbstomped along with the Serbs, and the reputation of the Pope just got worse.

Thanks for the reply

I wasn't really aware that Jewish administrators where taken advantage of in that way, however, I was sort of hoping that butterflies means that they're overall, more respected in society? What in the end I was hoping to achieve was enough tolerance in Spain so that they aren't expelled from Spain, any other ideas in which I can achieve this? My main bet at the moment seems to be to boost Martin V's reputation enough so that the Cardinals won't dare to challenge his position on Jewish tolerance(too much), enough so that it's legacy is felt for, say, atleast 50 years, after that, it really won't affect much if Jewish tolerance sticks with Spanish society but not with the Papacy. The earlier they learn tolerance, the longer it'll last, and the later tolerance begins, the harder it is to stick with. So early is good. A Pope that reigns long enough to influence influence Beatrix De Silva into being entirely pro-tolerance towards Jews is all that's required. Any ideas how I can boost Martin V up a notch? I was really using war against th3 ev3l m0zl3mz as an excuse to boost Papal popularity, but anything really, that can get Martin V in the limelight would work.

Silverwolf said:

Any ideas how I can boost Martin V up a notch? I was really using war against th3 ev3l m0zl3mz as an excuse to boost Papal popularity, but anything really, that can get Martin V in the limelight would work.

Click to expand...

Maybe have a vaguelly successful enterprise in propping up the Venetians and Romans in the Aegean; I'm not talking about rolling back the whole Ottoman Empire here, but just sending Papal troops, galleys, and money to Salonika in 1430 and saving the city, giving the Byzantines some breathing space, and giving the Ottomans a bit of a reminder that Christendom still had some fight in it yet. If this could be spun well, then maybe Martin V "gets in the limelight". If he manages to force through a church reunion (unpopular as this will be in the east), then the Pope's standing again increases in the west.

Hope this helps.

Silverwolf said:

Thanks for the reply

I wasn't really aware that Jewish administrators where taken advantage of in that way, however, I was sort of hoping that butterflies means that they're overall, more respected in society? What in the end I was hoping to achieve was enough tolerance in Spain so that they aren't expelled from Spain, any other ideas in which I can achieve this? My main bet at the moment seems to be to boost Martin V's reputation enough so that the Cardinals won't dare to challenge his position on Jewish tolerance(too much), enough so that it's legacy is felt for, say, atleast 50 years, after that, it really won't affect much if Jewish tolerance sticks with Spanish society but not with the Papacy. The earlier they learn tolerance, the longer it'll last, and the later tolerance begins, the harder it is to stick with. So early is good. A Pope that reigns long enough to influence influence Beatrix De Silva into being entirely pro-tolerance towards Jews is all that's required. Any ideas how I can boost Martin V up a notch? I was really using war against th3 ev3l m0zl3mz as an excuse to boost Papal popularity, but anything really, that can get Martin V in the limelight would work.

Click to expand...

He compromises enough when the Byzantines come begging that the Catholic and Orthodox churches are reunited, and the reunion both is widely accepted by the Eastern population and survives the fall of Constantinople. That would give him quite a bit of prestige without requiring him to commit troops to a risky campaign against the Ottomans. I'm not sure exactly what would be required to do this, though.

Thanks for the input At first, I thought it would be too late to reunited the east and west, to make this easier on myself, I think getting Orthodox Greeks, Romanians, Serbs, and Bulgarians(Basically most of the Balkans) would accept a union should the Byzantines agree to it, but the Russian Orthodox Church would most likely remain it's own unit. However, lands under Poland-Lithuania would have a very good reason to accept Catholicism as THE religion, possibly due to incentives by the Catholic Polish elite? I'm thinking that the Ottomans get a little(not so little) heavy-handed when dealing with the Byzantines during the siege of Thessalonica in 1422 and decide to send forces to Constantinople to force Constantine XI to surrender Thessalonica, and in fear, Constantine XI, instead of pleading to the Venetians, pleads directly to the Papacy to save his kingdom and agrees to the union of east and west? Of course, Muscovy(Because of Basil II) sees this as a threat to their power and deny the ability of Constantine XI to reunite the church, and thus, declares the Russian Orthodox Church(amid tons of chaos). However, many people bordering Poland-Lithuania do accept the Pope, and in the end, many people reject Russian Orthodoxy, even within the current Duchy of Moscow, and this would plague Russian expansion for centuries(essentially Ukraine, Belarus, Karelia, Southwestern Russia, the Caucasus, all of Finland, and small parts of the borders of the Duchy accept Catholicism)[This list refers to all territory that Russia had IOTL but most likely will not get a chance to expand on, except Southern Russia]. With the new loyalty of their Eastern Roman Catholic subjects, Papal power is greatly increased and the Pope can put pressure on many Western Catholic states to send expenditionary forces, and taxation of the new subjects provides the funds for the papal military to drive the Ottomans north into reinforcing Bulgaria/Macedonia and saving Constantinople, giving the Pope legitimacy in his divine right in the eyes of his new eastern subjects, however, Constantinople does in the end fall to the Ottomans(25 years later once the new Catholics are loyal to the Pope), and the Ottomans begin expanding into Albania and Southern Wallachia by the 1430s, by the end of the Papal-Ottoman War. Sound good?

On expenditionary forces, after the Pope gains THAT much power in one go, you really don't want to deny him a request like that, I think. France and Spain and other Italian states will definetly be sending troops, as well as Poland and Southern German states(maybe). Could this mass of troops drive the Ottomans back? A good chance through sheer numbers and the power of papal taxes. Plausible? I sadly think not, but this is why I post. To trim it into realism Once I can get the POD set, then I'll start on a TL.

No comments? Well, I'm posting to say, that I'ma go ahead with what I outlined in my above post and that to expect a post soon