Reds: A Revolutionary Timeline

[CCA]

Fantastic update as usual!

As for the question of the Philippines - I think it's highly likely that it will go independent. Remember that the machinery of government is present there - it's quite likely that it may even declare for the Whites depending on which way the dice rolls. I wish you good luck either way!

[Kataphraktos]

Originally Posted by CCA

Fantastic update as usual!

As for the question of the Philippines - I think it's highly likely that it will go independent. Remember that the machinery of government is present there - it's quite likely that it may even declare for the Whites depending on which way the dice rolls. I wish you good luck either way!

That reminds me, whatever happened to the Philippine Division, Far East Air Force and the Asiatic Fleet?

Were they recalled home, joined the UASR, made sure the Philippines joined the Whites or what? Because if memory serves, the Philippine was/is a pretty conservative place. During the Spanish Civil War they sent volunteers to the Fascists.

[Jello_Biafra]

Originally Posted by Wyragen-TXRG4P

Nice, the civil war ends quickly, a long and bloody one would have given some funny ideas to foreign powers. Canada´s population might increase even further in the next few years.

Originally Posted by Wyragen-TXRG4P

That is the general state of things and not surprisingly so (some would strongly disagree), individual lifes might a different matter.
In our WW1 Hitler survived and he also got gased, which convinced him not to use chemical weapons in WW2 (arguably).

That's an interesting possibility that I was not aware of. Like all these sorts of minor butterflies, I will be deciding them randomly *rolls d20*

Originally Posted by Wyragen-TXRG4P

Of course he could still be just as IOTL, but then would come the geopolitical thing. IOTL he was convinced the soviet-union would not be a major problem, because he saw it as a hell-hole mainly populated by subhumans, with little and less advanced industry. In this case bolchevism have most of the former united state´s industries and population he knew was mostly white.

He had a very negative view of the United States as well, and with it being overrun with Bolshevism, I do not think his opinion will improve. He regarded Americans as a people corrupted by race-mixing and Jewish influence.

Originally Posted by Wyragen-TXRG4P

IOTL the US had not shaked itself out of the depression when Pearl Harbour occured, despite Roosevelt´s best efforts. Until 1940, the US army was smaller than that of Portugal.
The UASR would have more authority than the Roosevelt gov and end the depression within a few years, it would avoid militarising too much but it would maintain decent standards for its army.
In any case, Hitler would know early that a war with the SU means a war with the UASR, which would be a long one no matter what. He wouldn´t believe in a short victorious war and get caught by surprise.

In general, I agree with you. But there are wrinkles that complicate this. The first is Italy, and Mussolini's dream of a New Rome will lead to conflict between the Axis and France even if France stays it's hand in German aggression in Eastern Europe. It will also complicate things with Britain as well. Britain and France probably won't have the luxury of remaining neutral for long

Hitler also saw the Soviet Union as "rotting structure, ready to collapse as soon as the door is kicked in". Given Stalin's purges and the bungled state of military defenses, he was not far off. This is why Hitler was confident enough to invade the Soviet Union while still fighting the British Empire on multiple fronts.

Originally Posted by Wyragen-TXRG4P

Stalin would be confident enough not to sign a non-agression pact with Germany, the SU might be stronger and would only have to contain Germany until the UASR comes to the rescue.

It is hard to tell how this would play out. Stalin would be more confident with America as an ally, but the primary concern that motivated the partition of Poland with Molotov-Ribbentrop was the danger of German armies being so close to the Soviet heartland.

Originally Posted by Wyragen-TXRG4P

Alternatively someone else, who remained unknow IOTL, faced a different life than IOTL and start in a path similar to our Hitler and ultimately comes to power instead of him. Synacrism, anyone?

While I agree in principle that Hitler was an interchangeable part in the rise to power of German fascism, I don't like these sorts of things for two reasons. The first is literary: Nazis are familiar, and they evoke predictable responses from readers. Trying to file off the serial numbers will lead to unnecessary confusion in the timeline. The second, I admit, is a bit more selfish: trying to make my own alternative to Nazi fascism would take a lot of work, in research and in writing, and as a college student trying to juggle school work, two very seperate groups of friends and other projects I might have, I don't want to take on that kind of work load.

[TNF]

You know, this might be a strange, off-hand and frankly off-the-topic-at-hand question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. What's the UASR going to do in terms of a mascot? I.E. Will Uncle Sam be donning more proletarian clothing and asking his countrymen to support the Revolution?

[glenn67]

What will happen to the Kennedy and Rockefeller families?

[DSS]

Originally Posted by glenn67

What will happen to the Kennedy and Rockefeller families?

For that matter, how about the Bush families?

[glenn67]

Also Ronald Reagan

[Jello_Biafra]

Originally Posted by The New Freedom

You know, this might be a strange, off-hand and frankly off-the-topic-at-hand question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. What's the UASR going to do in terms of a mascot? I.E. Will Uncle Sam be donning more proletarian clothing and asking his countrymen to support the Revolution?

That will be coming up real soon, actually, along with a whole lot of other culture related things. Here's a hint though: the period from 1933 to 1940 is going to be referred to by historians as the First Cultural Revolution.

Originally Posted by glenn67

What will happen to the Kennedy and Rockefeller families?

In brief: the Kennedy clan, salvaging what assets they could, has gone into exile in Cuba. However, the eldest son of Joseph P. Kennedy, Joseph P. Kennedy Jr., remains enrolled at Harvard University.

The Rockefellers, on the other hand, after the near total nationalization of Standard Oil and the myriad other assets of the family, emigrated to the UK.

Originally Posted by DudeAlmighty947

For that matter, how about the Bush families?

Prescott Sheldon Bush remains manager of the foreign division of the United States Rubbery Company of New York, which has been nationalized as part of the American Rubber Trust. Although he has considered exile, his managerial position remains safe and lucrative, and so the elder Bush finds himself a patriot of convenience.

Originally Posted by glenn67

Also Ronald Reagan

Ronald Reagan is currently happy with his job at the WOC radio station in Davenport, which voluntarily collectivized during the Revolution. He has been active in the local worker council, and expressed an interest in moving from sports broadcasting to journalism instead.

[manofsteelwool]

Will the American Cultural Revolution have any similarities with the Chinese Cultural Revolution or not?

What happened to Charlie Chaplin?

And to Robert Taft.

What will happen to China if it becomes Communist? Will it join one side or form something similar to the Non-aligned Movement, but more leftist overall? Or will there be a Sino-Soviet/American split in the future?

I have another quote about a possible 3rd Pole in the American-Soviet Cold War:

"The Red Tides clash and churn and destroy anything that gets in their way. That must never be the future for this planet. As Moses did millennia ago, we must part the Red Sea, for we are the only ones that can save this planet from their destruction."

[eschaton]

So what ended up happening to Puerto Rico? Is it still going to be a province of the Whites for the time being?

[Thinker1200]

.........: eek:

So......much........WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jello_Biafra]

Make sure you go read and comment here

I greatly appreciate any feedback you might have: it will help get the TL moving swiftly

[doconnor]

I've been really enjoying your alternate history.

During the (first) American Revolution thousands of people loyal to Britain left the 13 Colonies and where the first settlers in what is now southern Ontario. The result is that area of Canada had a disproportionate loyalty to Britain and the monarchy well into the 1960s. For example, major highways in Ontario where called King's Highways until 1993, while other Provincial highways where never called that.

In your alternate timeline the revolution and civil war would have probably drove hundreds of thousands of refugees into Canada. After the war many would have stayed, particularly, businesspeople. They probably would have concentrated in Toronto. Montreal was the larger city at the time, but I don't know if they would have been comfortable with the French character of the city, although the business class was dominated by Anglophones. That would have probably pushed Ontario politics significantly to the right. It might be similar to the expatriate Cubans in Florida, where a small but powerful group the must be pandered to.

On the other hand, your revolution might embolden the socialists rising out of the prairies, particularly one Tommy Douglas. When he went to the University of Chicago in 1930 he would have saw a very different socialist party then he did in our timeline.

[Jello_Biafra]

Ooh, that's excellent. Thanks. I'm not very well versed in Canadian history, but this seems to be an excellent place to start for researching future instalments regarding Canadian politics.

[Orville_third]

While we're on the topic of Canada, can you add in Norman Bethune? He's a Canadian doctor who had studied and worked in the USA, and was a dedicated Communist. In fact, he nearly became head of the Canadian Communist party... If he winds up moving to the United States, he could be a great help to the Communist cause, and accomplish a number of medical breakthroughs. However, it could butterfly away his biggest accomplishments in medicine (He helped develop the first mobile blood transfusion and surgery unit during the Spanish Civil War) and politics (His service (and death) in China inspired Chairman Mao himself to write an essay in his honor, which became required reading during the Cultural Revolution).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Bethune

[RCAF Brat]

Originally Posted by doconnor

I've been really enjoying your alternate history.

During the (first) American Revolution thousands of people loyal to Britain left the 13 Colonies and where the first settlers in what is now southern Ontario. The result is that area of Canada had a disproportionate loyalty to Britain and the monarchy well into the 1960s. For example, major highways in Ontario where called King's Highways until 1993, while other Provincial highways where never called that.

In your alternate timeline the revolution and civil war would have probably drove hundreds of thousands of refugees into Canada. After the war many would have stayed, particularly, businesspeople. They probably would have concentrated in Toronto. Montreal was the larger city at the time, but I don't know if they would have been comfortable with the French character of the city, although the business class was dominated by Anglophones. That would have probably pushed Ontario politics significantly to the right. It might be similar to the expatriate Cubans in Florida, where a small but powerful group the must be pandered to.

On the other hand, your revolution might embolden the socialists rising out of the prairies, particularly one Tommy Douglas. When he went to the University of Chicago in 1930 he would have saw a very different socialist party then he did in our timeline.

Mr. Douglas might have gone to Chicago and stayed. Which would butterfly his election as Premier of SK in 1944.

And it wasn't just socialists who came out of the prairies. A right-leaning populist party rose to prominence at the same time, ultimately coming to power in two of the four western provinces, and gaining quite a bit of support in the other two. This party was called Social Credit.

And to top it off, in the 1920s and 1930s, the KKK was very popular in the prairies, especially in Saskatchewan...

Originally Posted by Orville_third

While we're on the topic of Canada, can you add in Norman Bethune? He's a Canadian doctor who had studied and worked in the USA, and was a dedicated Communist. In fact, he nearly became head of the Canadian Communist party... If he winds up moving to the United States, he could be a great help to the Communist cause, and accomplish a number of medical breakthroughs. However, it could butterfly away his biggest accomplishments in medicine (He helped develop the first mobile blood transfusion and surgery unit during the Spanish Civil War) and politics (His service (and death) in China inspired Chairman Mao himself to write an essay in his honor, which became required reading during the Cultural Revolution).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Bethune

Here's another one who'd probably go south and never come back.

And on the topic of "latter day loyalists", how many of the surviving soldiers, militias, and other loyalists in the US north-east, Midwest, Plains States, and Pacific North-West went north instead of south once it became clear that they'd lost?

[Jello_Biafra]

Originally Posted by RCAF Brat

Mr. Douglas might have gone to Chicago and stayed. Which would butterfly his election as Premier of SK in 1944.

And it wasn't just socialists who came out of the prairies. A right-leaning populist party rose to prominence at the same time, ultimately coming to power in two of the four western provinces, and gaining quite a bit of support in the other two. This party was called Social Credit.

And to top it off, in the 1920s and 1930s, the KKK was very popular in the prairies, especially in Saskatchewan...

Well, there's no question that he'd stay, at least for a while. But he, and many other Canadian citizens who went south during and immediately after the revolution, will likely be encouraged by the American government to return to Canada at a later date as part of the efforts to "Finlandize" Canada.

So, him becoming Premier of Sasketchewan in 1944? Not likely. But that does not preclude him being influential in Canadian politics.

Originally Posted by RCAF Brat

Here's another one who'd probably go south and never come back.

And on the topic of "latter day loyalists", how many of the surviving soldiers, militias, and other loyalists in the US north-east, Midwest, Plains States, and Pacific North-West went north instead of south once it became clear that they'd lost?

That's a complicated question, because there are a lot of factors leading into it. First of all, the Canadian government really doesn't want them. Canada already has enough problems of its own with the Great Depression, and they don't want to deal with mobs of unemployed American refugees. So the chance of actually making it across the border is directly proportional to how much money a person has. Unless you have a job lined up, or have your own assets, you're not making it across the border legally.

I can't really venture at an exact number, but it is significant. A lot of mid-range and large businessman ended up going to Canada, and some middle class professionals went as well. And a significant portion of emigres will be enticed back in the late 30s with the increasing demand for skilled labor in the UASR's quickly recovering economy.

[ComradeFlyer]

I am curious if in your future updates you will have any other information regarding Trotsky's influence on the government. Is he just in the country for moral support, or is he going to take an active role in assisting the Provisional Gov't and its successor rule the UASR?

Taiwan survived in the early goings thanks in large part to American aide, will the exiled United States find itself a wealthy patron to support it?

I am not sure if you touched upon this, but what happened to FDR?

Lastly, will Washington D.C. be the only placed renamed are will there be a rash of places like Haywood City and Debsburg across the country?

[TNF]

Originally Posted by ComradeFlyer

I am not sure if you touched upon this, but what happened to FDR?

Lastly, will Washington D.C. be the only placed renamed are will there be a rash of places like Haywood City and Debsburg across the country?

I'm also interested in what happened to Mr. Roosevelt.

And, I really like the idea of renaming some cities after the heroes of the Revolution and it's predecessors. I know we're going to have Debs, D.C. in the future, but what about some others? I think I have a few suggestions, myself...

Salt Lake City, Utah -> Haywood City, Utah
Portland, Oregon -> Reed, Oregon
Baltimore, Maryland -> Sinclair, Maryland
Marion, Ohio -> Thomasville, Ohio
Canandaigua, New York -> Eastman, New York
San Gabriel, California -> Patton, California

Granted, some are cornier than others, but I was going with cities of birth here. Also, in mentioning Salt Lake City, how are the Mormons going to adapt to the UASR government? Will there be any underlying tension there?

[Jello_Biafra]

Originally Posted by ComradeFlyer

I am curious if in your future updates you will have any other information regarding Trotsky's influence on the government. Is he just in the country for moral support, or is he going to take an active role in assisting the Provisional Gov't and its successor rule the UASR?

Taiwan survived in the early goings thanks in large part to American aide, will the exiled United States find itself a wealthy patron to support it?

I am not sure if you touched upon this, but what happened to FDR?

Lastly, will Washington D.C. be the only placed renamed are will there be a rash of places like Haywood City and Debsburg across the country?

Currently, he has no official, and is only providing advice and moral support. But as the Party and the government moves more into the "Trotskyist" camp, he will become a more important figure. All I can say is that he will eventually become a naturalized citizen, and will be influential in transforming the Comintern from an organization of political parties into a supranational organization of states.

The exiled United States does not have much more support then the own money its emigres brought, and creating a favorable climate for foreign investment. In the nadir of the Great Depression, the possibility of foreign aid really is out of the question.

I have yet to touch on this, but here's a teaser. FDR did not suffer from whatever paralytic affliction (whether it was polio or Guillien-Barre syndrome, I really don't care) in 1921. In the mid 20s, he and Eleanor divorced, as quietly as possible in the time period, and went their seperate ways.

When the Revolution began, FDR was a state senator in New York, and he, along with the few other Democrats left in New York opposed the military coup. The New York Democratic Party, under his assumed leadership, would eventually endorse the Provisional Government.

Eleanor joined the Workers Party not long after the start of the Great Depression. Though she had worked with many of its constituents in the years before, such as the Women's Trade Union League or the NAACP, the Great Depression ultimately gave Marxism a mass constituency among even the affluent and intellectuals.

There will be other places, but it won't be quite as egregious as in the USSR. And it likely will not happen while these people are alive or active in politics.

Originally Posted by The New Freedom

I'm also interested in what happened to Mr. Roosevelt.

And, I really like the idea of renaming some cities after the heroes of the Revolution and it's predecessors. I know we're going to have Debs, D.C. in the future, but what about some others? I think I have a few suggestions, myself...

Salt Lake City, Utah -> Haywood City, Utah
Portland, Oregon -> Reed, Oregon
Baltimore, Maryland -> Sinclair, Maryland
Marion, Ohio -> Thomasville, Ohio
Canandaigua, New York -> Eastman, New York
San Gabriel, California -> Patton, California

Granted, some are cornier than others, but I was going with cities of birth here. Also, in mentioning Salt Lake City, how are the Mormons going to adapt to the UASR government? Will there be any underlying tension there?

Those are good suggestions, and I will keep them in mind.

The LDS Church, like many religious organizations, is going to be put through a lot of internal conflict. There will be some Mormons who try to meld revolutionary Marxism with their communitarian Mormon faith, but there will be at least as many others who find this idea totally unpalatable. Utah will be a hotbed of strife for some time, and unfortunately some heavy handed measures will be taken, as later updates will show.