Macartney Kowtows: Successful British Embassy to Qing China

[Strategos' Risk]

How could this mission have succeeded? ASB?

Man, I sure love making threads with titles that sound like an elaborate timeline is in store when in reality all is contained are Wikipedia links and questions that other people are expected to answer and do the work for me.

[Zyzzyva]

I think we did this a little while back. The short answer is, there's no way it could succeed, because the Europeans were trying to establish "normal diplomatic relations" and the Chinese just didn't have that concept. In Chinese eyes, every other state on Earth was a more-or-less rebellious vassal of the Dragon Throne, full stop. What McCartney was asking for just didn't fit into the Imperial Chinese worldview. Look at the Dutch Mission a few years later - they kowtowed all over the place and it did nothing for them, because what they were asking for was impossible. "Normal" relations were impossible until the Imperial Chinese view of the world was conclusively disproven, which in practical terms means Opium Wars and Unequal Treaties. That's what it would take.

[tallwingedgoat]

The Chinese did have a very Sino-centric world view, but it's overstating the case to say the rulers were not able to conceive of a "normal diplomatic relationship". It should be pointed out that the Qing dynasty treated the Russian empire with significant respect. Treaties were signed and both sides have exchanged embassies.

The problem was Macartney was asking too much. He wanted a permanent British presence in the Imperial capital and Chushan island off Shanghai for a trading base. That was simply absurd in the Chinese mind, since they knew very little about the British. It would be as if the Sultan of Tunisia wanted the Isle of Wight. As far as China was concerned they were one of several sea faring peoples plying trade on the south seas. If such a request was granted everybody else will be making similar demands. The mission was ostensibly to attend Qianlong Emperor's 80th birthday party. Qianlong was an expansionist ruler who had doubled China's territorial size and brought the empire to its financial apex, certainly he was one of the greatest emperors of all time. To expect someone that self-assured to be so overwhelmed by Macartney as to grant territorial concessions on the spot is a tad unrealistic.

It would have been far more productive for Macartney to ask for a Chinese embassy to be made to Britain. Perhaps he could take a few court officials back with him for an exchange visit. Without such direct human to human contacts, there was nothing to build an equal relationship on.

[mowque]

Originally Posted by tallwingedgoat

The Chinese did have a very Sino-centric world view, but it's overstating the case to say the rulers were not able to conceive of a "normal diplomatic relationship". It should be pointed out that the Qing dynasty treated the Russian empire with significant respect. Treaties were signed and both sides have exchanged embassies.

This. I think many people forget that China dealt with Europeans on a regular basis. The fur trade to Russia was actually fairly substantial. Nice catch tallwingedgoat

[RGB]

Originally Posted by tallwingedgoat

The Chinese did have a very Sino-centric world view, but it's overstating the case to say the rulers were not able to conceive of a "normal diplomatic relationship". It should be pointed out that the Qing dynasty treated the Russian empire with significant respect. Treaties were signed and both sides have exchanged embassies.

Not without a great many misunderstandings first, either, but in general the Russians (especially following early clashes on the Amur) took a persistent soft approach to Asian diplomacy until after the Opium wars. Sometimes it paid off.

[Falastur]

Originally Posted by tallwingedgoat

The problem was Macartney was asking too much.

...

It would have been far more productive for Macartney to ask for a Chinese embassy to be made to Britain. Perhaps he could take a few court officials back with him for an exchange visit. Without such direct human to human contacts, there was nothing to build an equal relationship on.

Actually, if you read the transcript of the Emperor's letter to George III, Zyzzyva is largely right. While the Chinese may have agreed to sending an embassy to London, it wouldn't be the start of a great friendship, no matter how impressed the Chinese might be. In his letter to George III, the Emperor made it explicitly clear that he refused to let any European stay at his court, for two reasons - because it would set a precedent to the rest of Europe, and because he didn't think that Europeans belonged at his court. To him, they were barbarians (the word "barbarian" specifically is used about five times in the transcript I just read) and had no business in his court. Also, the way that he picked apart the British request smacks of finding excuses to deny something he simply didn't want to think about. And the chances of China wanting to make an embassy in London are slim. In the letter, the Emperor several times describes England as "an isolated island" and essentially calls it insignificant. For this reason, the Chinese would be incapable of "normal" diplomatic relations with Europe - there was just no ground for mutual respect.

The Emperor also went through the list of British requests in his letter and summarily dismissed each and every one of them, giving the reasons he thought they were unacceptable. This isn't the action of someone who is reacting to be asked for too much - in such a situation you would offer some mild concession to show your willingness to negotiate, and then simply dismiss the request in one go to encourage a reply. Instead, the Emperor's letter strongly gives the impression that it was written to tell George "England should be grateful for what it already has".

Finally, the Emperor in his letter does several times refer to England's Ambassadors as "tribute Envoys" and describes England's motives for the mission as a "respectful spirit of submission". In fact, the Emperor explicitly at one point says "It behoves you, O King, to respect my sentiments and to display even greater devotion and loyalty in future, so that, by perpetual submission to our Throne, you may secure peace and prosperity for your country hereafter". It's pretty obvious that he saw the English as a vassal state which, though acting respectfully and loyally was, as he saw it, acting above its station in trying to negotiate with him, their sovereign Overlord. Whichever way you look at it, the Emperor is not going to give anything more than token gestures to the English. I'll remind you that McCartney's mission was designed to place an English embassy in Peking and to open up more of the country to trade. Even if McCartney could have toned down his requests drastically and shown the utmost humility to please the Emperor, there's no way that these specific goals can be achieved. Getting the Chinese to agree to send a mission to London can't be viewed as a success for McCartney because it just utterly fails to achieve anything McCartney was actually sent to get.

[tallwingedgoat]

Originally Posted by Falastur

...
Getting the Chinese to agree to send a mission to London can't be viewed as a success for McCartney because it just utterly fails to achieve anything McCartney was actually sent to get.

It may not be viewed as a success in London at the time, but it would be something to build on which could produce a successful historical outcome.

First of all the Chinese never entertained permanent foreign embassies. The very concept was foreign. You want to get to know someone, pay a few visits, not ask for a room in his house. McCartney basically crashed the emperor's big birthday party and then refused to do the customary kowtow. Qianlong decided to act graciously, probably the way a host would still welcome uninvited guests at his daughter's wedding. But then MaCartney started asking for a place to stay permanently and that annoyed Qianlong . Besides Qianlong was very old. He was 80, ancient in those days. He had ab incredibly successful career and in his old age lost interest with running the show. He was just not in the mood to try something risky. A sign of respect would be to exchange embassies. That I think was doable.

The Chinese viewed everyone else as barbarians, including the Manchu rulers. Referring to someone as barbarian is like Jews calling others gentiles. It doesn't automatically imply that nation is unworthy of diplomatic relations or respect. The Chinese frequently sent emissaries abroad, and Qianlong in fact did have Europeans (Jesuits) at court, as his father Yongzhen and his father Kangxi before him. In fact Manchu Emperors were huge Europhiles. Yongzhen likes to play dress up in European clothes and wigs. Qianlong had an entire Western theme place built by a Jesuit architect. It was all Italian style carved marble and had a faux European village for the emperor to visit by boat.

Maybe if Macartney was Italian, Qianlong would've been more impressed . But Qianlong didn't know much about the British. Not one of his courtiers have ever been outside the Sinosphere. The British were not a land power which to Qianlong meant they were small and insignificant. They couldn't have a large population and tax base. Traditionally Chinese understood northern barbarians as important land powers but had little respect for those that come from the south seas. As far as he was concerned the British were little more than common sea going traders like the East Indies natives. He felt he was being a pretty gracious host giving Macartney plenty of supplies and gifts for his trouble.

Britain had to start with establishing its bona fides. It would make a difference if some Chinese were actually able to go to Europe and see it for themselves. It's sometimes hard for us to imagine what its like to live in a world where some countries are so far away and foreign that not one of your people have ever been there and back. Without some basic understanding of who the British were and what they had to offer, what Macartney was asking for was beyond what Qianlong was capable of understanding. It's one thing to ask for too much when everyone understand each other. But when they know next to nothing about you and you ask for the sky, there's not going to be a negotiation. The goals of the MaCartney mission was unrealistic and doomed from the start.

[Matthais Corvinus]

Is there any way to get Chinese delegations to Europe during the 18th century? I suddenly had this cool (and probably ASB) vision of Jacobin-inspired revolts, as Chinese delegates return from Europe full of European enlightenment thinking and a much sharper sense of nationalism.

The wikipedia article about George Macartney includes some of his observations about China. In particular he points out that the Qing dynasty is a foreign (he calls them "Tartars") regime ruling over the native Chinese, and that this foreign domination has provoked frequent revolts and secret soceities. He also says that if the Qing were to be challenged and defeated, then China would fly apart. So not too far off the mark from what really happened I suppose.

So while Europe is entrapped in the Napoleonic Wars, Enlightenment-inspired Chinese nationalists are rising in rebellion across the South of China. The White Lotus Rebellion, rather than being a religiously inspired rebellion, is organized and led by disaffected native Chinese members of the Qing Bureaucracy.

[tallwingedgoat]

Originally Posted by Matthais Corvinus

Is there any way to get Chinese delegations to Europe during the 18th century? I suddenly had this cool (and probably ASB) vision of Jacobin-inspired revolts, as Chinese delegates return from Europe full of European enlightenment thinking and a much sharper sense of nationalism.

It's actually hard to explain why there weren't any individual Chinese visits to Europe. There were plenty of Chinese merchants on the south coast who dealt with European traders. In the East Indies there were many Dutch speaking Chinese immigrants, some in the merchant class. I think if enough people traveled to Europe and wrote about it, inevitably an ambassador will be sent. Perhaps at first it would just be to near by European colonies. They did sent Mandarins to The Philippines, but ever to India for example.

So while Europe is entrapped in the Napoleonic Wars, Enlightenment-inspired Chinese nationalists are rising in rebellion across the South of China. The White Lotus Rebellion, rather than being a religiously inspired rebellion, is organized and led by disaffected native Chinese members of the Qing Bureaucracy.

I don't know if China would be so ready to embrace foreign ideas. Qing history is not encouraging. Even in the 19th century the focus was still on acquiring Western technology while keeping to traditional culture. Certainly the beheading of French aristocracy would put off Chinese elites, much as it did for Catherine of Russia. OTOH it would be pretty cool to see how Voltaire would sell his ideas to Chinese intellectuals, since he was so keen to use Confucianism as an example of Enlightenment in practice. (Voltaire use the compatibility of Confucian values to Christianity ala the Golden Rule to prove morality was universal, the idea of the Mandate of Heaven as a proto-Social Contract, and advocated for a meritocratic government inspired by the Confucian exams).

China was obviously not the Enlightenment ideal Voltaire thought, but there was some aspects of Enlightenment theory that was easy for Confucianists to understand. The first half of the 18th century was also a very convenient time for this kind of exchange as there was a great deal of interest in Chinese culture among Europeans at the time. Many European palaces had Chinese rooms or pavillions and wealthy people went to outdoor events dressed in what they thought was Chinese costumes to watch Chinese themed plays and compare imported porcelain. There was so much of this that there was almost a backlash by late 18th century.

[Matthais Corvinus]

Originally Posted by tallwingedgoat

It's actually hard to explain why there weren't any individual Chinese visits to Europe. There were plenty of Chinese merchants on the south coast who dealt with European traders. In the East Indies there were many Dutch speaking Chinese immigrants, some in the merchant class. I think if enough people traveled to Europe and wrote about it, inevitably an ambassador will be sent. Perhaps at first it would just be to near by European colonies. They did sent Mandarins to The Philippines, but ever to India for example.

Perhaps a large mid-18th century rebellion in South China, with some elites ending up going to Europe? The exiles speak of China's vast wealth, and the eagerness of the people to throw off the foreign tyranny of the Qing.

I don't know if China would be so ready to embrace foreign ideas. Qing history is not encouraging. Even in the 19th century the focus was still on acquiring Western technology while keeping to traditional culture. Certainly the beheading of French aristocracy would put off Chinese elites, much as it did for Catherine of Russia. OTOH it would be pretty cool to see how Voltaire would sell his ideas to Chinese intellectuals, since he was so keen to use Confucian as example of Enlightenment in practice. (Voltaire use the compatibility of Confucian values to Christianity ala the Golden Rule to prove morality was universal, the idea of the Mandate of Heaven as a proto-Social Contract, and advocated for a meritocratic government inspired by the Confucian exams).

China was obviously not the Enlightenment ideal Voltaire thought, but there was some aspects of Enlightenment theory that was easy for Confucianists to understand.

The "Cantonese Exiles" end up being credited as the group that reconciled the European Enlightenment with Chinese intellectual traditions, particularly Confucianism. Their writings inflitrate throughout the educated Chinese bureaucratic elite, and are widely cited as the intellectual underpinnings 19th century Chinese Republicanism, which advocated the end of the Qing Dynasty and the creation of an egalitarian, meritocratic that would enjoy a permanent "Mandate of Heaven".

The popularity of the Cantonese Republicans caused various strains of the movement to be suppressed by European colonialists across South-east Asia, where it influenced not only the ethnic Chinese populations, but also infiltrated into native populations.