Germanic Empire instead of Roman Empire

[Zacoftheaxes]

Is it possible to make a Germanic Empire come to power in place of the Roman empire? What PoD would work to allow this to happen? I'm thinking of making a time line for this but I don't know where to start.

Orange=Germanic
Red=Roman
Gray=Macedonian

[False Dmitri]

There is no single point to start diverging from. The Germanics were decentralized and tribal, the Italians civilized and urbanized. How to reverse that? Rather impossible. Unless you invoke the space bats.

[Susano]

There never was a Germanic nation, though. It was a group of peoples that had similar languages, cultrues and gods, but there was never one germanic people... and even the larger kingdoms they had were usually shortlived among tribal strife (most famously Arminius' one).

[wormyguy]

That map is more than a little wanked, too.

[Don_Giorgio]

Maybe its plausible in 5th-6th century AD... Have Goths overran WRE and create a solid empire by subduing Vandals, Franks etc. oh and Justinian loosing badly in Gothic Wars... But still dont know...

[Nicomacheus]

Well, you might be able to deal the Romans something of death blow in 390/393 BC during the Gallic Invasion of Italy: the sack of Rome is much more harmful. This puts the Romans out of commission. Problem is POD that early leaves a lot uncertain: the outcome of Greek hegemonic struggles during the early 4th century, the rise of Macedon and the Alexandrian conquests, to say nothing of Alexander's early death. In the Western Med, you'd have unorganized Gauls in the North, with a growing Carthaginian hegemony in the South. The Carthaginians are unlikely IMO to exert the same kind of influence that Rome did (not that it won't be important, but that the tendency to prefer trade to conquest and mercenaries to citizen soldiers have a different, probably lesser cultural momentum). After that, you'd have to posit a secondary POD to have the Germans emerge as a united body, capable of overwhelming the Gauls and Carthaginians in Iberia.

In essence, the hard part is that by the time you have truly Germanic tribes (as opposed to poorly defined eastern Gallic tribes) Rome is already a fact on the Mediterranean stage and the German tribes, chiefdoms, and statelets lack the cohesion to overwhelm it until it withers per OTL.

[President Sam Houston]

Certainly not an expert or even that familiar with ancient pre-Roman Europe. However, it seems to me that Northern European civilizations were so far behind the civilizations in and around the Mediterranean from the beginning of time, that only ASBs could make this TL work. However, on the other hand, if there could be some event in the 1000 - 600 BCE era to assist the mostly Celtic tribes living throughout Gaul, Britain, and Central Europe to begin building cities, trading with each other extensively, exchanging ideas, developing their languages in written form, etc., then it is possible for one city state to emerge out of this culture/civilization and conquer all of its neighbors, and build a workable government to create a Celtic empire that could rival and then subjugate Rome around 300 - 200 BCE. But the Celts are not the Germans.

[Zacoftheaxes]

I meant if there was a PoD where Germanic tribes would become more urban and roman like and then begin forming an empire.

[Hapsburg]

The only reasonable possibility I can see is if the Visi- and Ostrogoths stay united, and build their Empire out of the husk of the Roman one. Then, to gather more power and to throw their weight around, they can claim to be an empire for all Germanic tribes.

Or, alternatively, have the Franks keep a-going with their empire, but NOT claim Roman succession at all. Basically have Charlemagne not pull a Charlemagne.

But these are after Roman influence caused certain tribes to unify and urbanise. It wouldn't work otherwise.

[Thinker1200]

Read This.
http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...ad.php?t=96981

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by Zacoftheaxes

I meant if there was a PoD where Germanic tribes would become more urban and roman like and then begin forming an empire.

Sadly not. Urbanization came very, very late to the region you've labelled Germania.

But there is hope. Pre-Roman Gaul was becoming fairly urbanized, with an increasing trend towards centralization.

I wonder what's Welsh for Empire Without End.

[Dutchie]

Tilt the axis of the Earthe sufficiently that the Baltic is at the same lattitude as our Med, and maybe... You're dealing with completely different geographies here that are going to prevent large, urbanized development of Europe's north in the ancient era. Read Guns, Germs & Steel for the effects of geographic determinism - Ancient civilizations sprung up around the Med for a reason, not by chance - that's where the easy agriculture, fishing and hunting were. To the north you have poor soil, short growing seasons, increasingly brutal winters and a decided lack of population (a result of the previous factors) that stall your germanic development.

And then -as has been said - there's your disorganized nature of those tribes, that weren't united outside the views of the Romans themselves, who lumped them together as barbarians. It'd be like asking what if the Native Americans forged one Empire and threw out the Europeans - there weren't one people, but many that were often at odds with each other.

A Gallic empire, possibly, but even then it would be Med-centric. But Germanic? sorry, but not likely at all.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

The best case scenario would be a a short-term unification of several Germanic tribal groups, who could have invaded Gaul, and established a permanent nation or grouping of tribal kingdoms in that region. Merging with the more culturally sophisticated Gauls could help their cause. It won't be a purely Germanic culture, however. And either having close links with, or taking control of the Greek city of Massalia (modern Marseille) may be useful.

The Germanics had been steadily migrating beyond the Baltic as early as 800 BCE. The Bastarnae was one such group. Their territory was located north of the Carpathian Mountains, so they would have enjoyed relatively close trading links with the Scythians and the Greeks that lived around the Black Sea. The Baltic shoreline was, and still is an enormous source of Amber, which often found it's way to the Greeks, Phoenicians, and the Egyptians. So they weren't quite isolated from the urban cultures of the Mediterranean.

While the Celts were more dominant in western Europe, they did wield considerable influence in eastern Europe. The Scordisci, for example, while rather small in number, possessed a strong hold over the more numerous Thracian, Pannonian, and Illyrian ethnic groups, and were known to Alexander the Great. There is also a reference of a group of ambassadors from that tribe whom met the future conqueror of Persia in person. And in the wake of the Celtic invasion of Greece and Macedonia, one group would settle in what is now Bulgaria, and founded a short-lived kingdom which was centred around a city called Tylis. Others would travel across the Hellespont at the invitaion of the Bithynians, and later settle in the territory in central Anatolia called Galatia.

Anther possibility to explore is to create a successful outcome for the Suebi invasion and occupation of the Gallic territories of the Aedui and the Sequani, which occured during the First Century BCE, just prior to Julius Caesar's Proconsulship of Transalpine Gaul. The man that led the Suebi into Gaul at the time, known in the Latin sources as "Ariovistus", was said to have been a competent commander in his own right.

Or maybe some fifty years earlier, the Cimbri-Teuton alliance, that succeeded in toppeling the Romans in every engagement until the reformed Legions of Consul Gaius Marius settled the score at the battles of Vercallae and Aquae Sextiae. Maybe have them settle in southern or central Gaul.