What would be the best case scenario for the Ottoman Turks to to either colonize or establish a permanent presence in North or South America?
WI the Ottomans made it to America?
- Thread starter Lysandros Aikiedes
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The Ottomans did not even have mastery of the Mediterranean (and even then, tenuous) until the 1570's. Chances are that even when they were at their height, they would not be able to get past Spain so close to its home (they would, after all, have needed to pass through the Straits of Gibraltar). The other possible route is around Africa, but 1: Portugal controlled this route, and 2: The sheer logistical problems of such an undertaking would be enormous.
Besides, by that point, the Spanish and Portuguese already had a hold on South and Central America (although that of the Portuguese on coastal Brazil was less firm). I suppose North America would thus become their best bet, but I don't see the Christian powers, despite all of their differences, taking too kindly to an Ottoman presence in the New World.
If, on the other hand, the Ottomans had attempted to go when the New World was first discovered, they would already have had a strong, if not dominant, navy. Still, I think the problems posed by either the Straits or the Cape route would prove insurmountable.
Besides, by that point, the Spanish and Portuguese already had a hold on South and Central America (although that of the Portuguese on coastal Brazil was less firm). I suppose North America would thus become their best bet, but I don't see the Christian powers, despite all of their differences, taking too kindly to an Ottoman presence in the New World.
If, on the other hand, the Ottomans had attempted to go when the New World was first discovered, they would already have had a strong, if not dominant, navy. Still, I think the problems posed by either the Straits or the Cape route would prove insurmountable.
That's a fun what-if, but hard to imagine how it could take place, given that even at the height of its success, the Ottomans had enemies on almost all sides that were always eager to push them back: Russia, Austria, Hungary, Spain, the Italian and North African states, etc.. Even if the Battle of Lepanto had gone the other way, the Christian countries were racing ahead in terms of their technologies and economies. Guns and Steel were tilting west, the Turks were only keeping pace on the Germs front.
If a pullback from Austria had been voluntary rather than the result of failed attempts to take Vienna, perhaps the Austrian Hapsburgs could have made peace, and the Ottomans could have had the resources for naval development.
Going back to the 14th and 15th centuries, if the Ottomans had managed to become patrons of Grenada, the last Muslim state in Spain, they could have had a way to reach the Atlantic-- but the Ottoman rise came too late for that. Slow down the Reconquista somehow? It took 700 years as it was.
The only real option seems to pacify post-1492 Spain-- but the Spanish identity was bound up with Catholicism, and very anti-Muslim. Maybe once the other European colonial powers started challenging the Spanish in the New World, there could have been an alliance of convenience with the Ottoman Empire and they could have been awarded a share of the Spanish colonies in exchange for help against the pirating British dogs.
If a pullback from Austria had been voluntary rather than the result of failed attempts to take Vienna, perhaps the Austrian Hapsburgs could have made peace, and the Ottomans could have had the resources for naval development.
Going back to the 14th and 15th centuries, if the Ottomans had managed to become patrons of Grenada, the last Muslim state in Spain, they could have had a way to reach the Atlantic-- but the Ottoman rise came too late for that. Slow down the Reconquista somehow? It took 700 years as it was.
The only real option seems to pacify post-1492 Spain-- but the Spanish identity was bound up with Catholicism, and very anti-Muslim. Maybe once the other European colonial powers started challenging the Spanish in the New World, there could have been an alliance of convenience with the Ottoman Empire and they could have been awarded a share of the Spanish colonies in exchange for help against the pirating British dogs.
What reason would be needed for someone like Sultan Mehmed II to ally himself with one of the last kings of Granada? What would he get out of it? No doubt the Emirate of Granada needs the friendship of the Ottoman Empire more than the Turks need them. Perhaps a minister in the court of Sultan Abu I-Hasan Ali convinces his lord to become a vassal of the Ottoman state before he begun to refuse paying tribute to the Kings of Castile?!
Just to get the Ottomans a toehold near Gibraltar, to get an outlet to the Atlantic if the New World scenario is to be made possible. Also to slow Spanish consolidation and overseas expansion. I mean, once the big galleons started bringing Aztec gold home after 1520, Spain wasn't in a mood to share.
What reason for the actual Sultan to turn his attention away from, say, Constantinople in favor of adventures in the New World (which hadn't been discovered yet)? Uh, well, maybe he had a dream in which people sitting in front of glowing boxes in the 21st century were typing messages about alternate history scenarios.
Just as well that the POD for this is best placed between 1460-85.
I thought that it was implied that Mehmed II was just one of several Sultans of Turkey who could have lent military aid to the Granadans. Perhaps Bayezid II could have helped out Muhammed XII during the mid-1480's, but I thought the safe bet was Mehmed and Abu I-Hasan Ali.
Was there something involving north-west Africa that was concievably useful? Would the Ottomans have the need to protect Moorish shipping from the Portuguese. Maybe the Morrocans could use Ottoman help in liberating the city of Ceuta? I figured there would have to be a relatively local reason that would allow the Ottomans to maintain a military presence in southern Spain before someone sends an expedition to the New World.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Spain was incomparably weaker than most of the other powers by the 19th c, yet it managed to hold onto all of the Americas until then.
The main Ottoman opponents were Russia and the Hapsburgs, neither of which have the ability to project any real power against Ottoman America.
The problem is how do they get there? It would have to mean something going terribly wrong with the Reconquista and increased Ottoman power un the Mediterranean and Iberia.
The obvious solution is absorption of Granada as an Ottoman vassal, and preferably something that prevents the union of Aragon and Castille.
Hanefite Sunnism strikes me as a faith that would have more success in the New World than Catholicism, so you might very well end up with a real basis for an Ottoman presence. Imagine Muslim Ottoman-armed and trained Aztecs. Hee. Unlikely, but even Ottoman armed and trained Cherokee sound kind of dangerous.
The main Ottoman opponents were Russia and the Hapsburgs, neither of which have the ability to project any real power against Ottoman America.
The problem is how do they get there? It would have to mean something going terribly wrong with the Reconquista and increased Ottoman power un the Mediterranean and Iberia.
The obvious solution is absorption of Granada as an Ottoman vassal, and preferably something that prevents the union of Aragon and Castille.
Hanefite Sunnism strikes me as a faith that would have more success in the New World than Catholicism, so you might very well end up with a real basis for an Ottoman presence. Imagine Muslim Ottoman-armed and trained Aztecs. Hee. Unlikely, but even Ottoman armed and trained Cherokee sound kind of dangerous.
...I actually did that in AOE3 once; I played the Ottomans and went for a "native troops only" win, with the result that I ended up with a a bunch of Ottoman imams urging their giant Sioux horde to crush the infidel French settlement. It was hilarious, and yes, my first thought was indeed "this would make an awesome timeline".
Although the problem as I see it is that all of the countries that colonized the New World were ones crammed up against the Atlantic seaboard: England, France, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands. The farthest east of any significance whatsoever was Sweden, and even then at the height of their power they barely managed a weak and temporary showing. The Ottomans don't just need to get to the Atlantic, as significant an undertaking as that would be on its own; they also have to turn their attention from all of the things around them to the New World, which seems unlikely (and kindof counterproductive). The Ottoman Empire was pretty much predicated on continually beating the snot out of Austria, Persia, Russia, and anybody else nearby; ITTL, that also means the Spanish in Grenada, and probably pretty much everybody else (Venice and Genoa at the very least) who aren't happy with the fact that the Ottomans own the Mediterranean from end to end. They were very, very good at it, but there's only so much effort you can divert to the New World before it starts to cut into your ability to take all comers.
A few stray thoughts on the last two posts:
(1) 'What if the [tribe name here] were Muslims?' -- Reminds me of a passage in Albert Speer's memoirs where he describes Hitler wishing the Germans had been Muslims instead of cringing, meek (yeah, right) Christians. The thought gives me a headache. Wait, no, I think that's the beer.
(2) Don't forget the illustrious Duchy of Courland! It had colonies in Gambia and Tobago until the Dutch and English bullies came and took them.
(1) 'What if the [tribe name here] were Muslims?' -- Reminds me of a passage in Albert Speer's memoirs where he describes Hitler wishing the Germans had been Muslims instead of cringing, meek (yeah, right) Christians. The thought gives me a headache. Wait, no, I think that's the beer.
(2) Don't forget the illustrious Duchy of Courland! It had colonies in Gambia and Tobago until the Dutch and English bullies came and took them.
That being the other big problem - how are the Ottomans going to keep folks from eating their colonies?
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
...I actually did that in AOE3 once; I played the Ottomans and went for a "native troops only" win, with the result that I ended up with a a bunch of Ottoman imams urging their giant Sioux horde to crush the infidel French settlement. It was hilarious, and yes, my first thought was indeed "this would make an awesome timeline".
Although the problem as I see it is that all of the countries that colonized the New World were ones crammed up against the Atlantic seaboard: England, France, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands. The farthest east of any significance whatsoever was Sweden, and even then at the height of their power they barely managed a weak and temporary showing. The Ottomans don't just need to get to the Atlantic, as significant an undertaking as that would be on its own; they also have to turn their attention from all of the things around them to the New World, which seems unlikely (and kindof counterproductive). The Ottoman Empire was pretty much predicated on continually beating the snot out of Austria, Persia, Russia, and anybody else nearby; ITTL, that also means the Spanish in Grenada, and probably pretty much everybody else (Venice and Genoa at the very least) who aren't happy with the fact that the Ottomans own the Mediterranean from end to end. They were very, very good at it, but there's only so much effort you can divert to the New World before it starts to cut into your ability to take all comers.
The Ottomans didn't have to take on all comers - they were allied for France, which was much the most powerful nation in Europe. Also, once the Reformation began, a lot of Protestants quietly appealed to the Ottomans for help - and got it. A lot of evidence has been uncovered recently that Ottoman offensives against Spain were not randomly, incidentally, or opportunistically timed - they were specifically launched to take pressure off Protestant rebels.
I agree that there isn't much impetus for Ottoman colonization - but in a TL where the Ottomans control Granada the world is going to look a whole lot different.
We're not necessarily discussing anything likely, or even remotely likely - just possible. The Ottomans were a lot more knowledgeable about the world's seas and how to navigate them than a lot of people think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis
Perhaps a more fruitful POD is conquest of Italy - imagine a Columbus in Ottoman service...
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
They would have to have Atlantic access, i.e. control over Granada.
What if the expulsion of the Moors and Jews from Iberia leads to Jewish-Ottoman America as refugees depart for the New World from the Ottoman base at Cadiz?
Well yeah; and the Ottoman-France tag team pretty much beat up on Europe for three centuries. But at the same time the Ottomans aren't invincible and their (impressive) OTL military capacities were more geared towards massive grinding land campaigns. When it came to propping up allies overseas, a la Grenada, their record wasn't so impressive. Which isn't to say it's impossible; just if they're going to keep the Strait of Gibraltar open, it's going to take a redistribution of resources that pretty much by definition is going to leave them weaker in other places.
We're not necessarily discussing anything likely, or even remotely likely - just possible. The Ottomans were a lot more knowledgeable about the world's seas and how to navigate them than a lot of people think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis
Er... when did I say the Ottomans weren't seafarers? I just said they're a long, hard way from the Americas.
Oooh...
Although if there's one thing that will get the Tenth Crusade started it's the Turk going after Rome. And the French saw Italy as their property, ditto Spain. The Ottomans are going to run a little short on friends. Well, maybe the Protestants. But in a France-Spain-(Austria?) V Ottomans-Protestants war - taking place in Italy - my money's on the Catholics.
Well, religious refugees are always a good place to start for New World colonies. And despite my whining above, I think the idea has merit; just, as you said, it's going to take a bit of a different Ottoman Empire than OTL's.
Huh - what about Grenadan New World colonies? they're not Ottoman, admittedly, but the Grenadans were pretty well off (well, before Spain came knocking) and have the advantage of being, well, not stuck on the wrong end of the Mediterranean. Say the Ottomans decide to help their brothers in the faith, which doesn't get them colonies but gives the Grenadans enough breathing space to start looking West? Then, in a hundred years or so, the Ottomans can conquer/marry into/otherwise take over Grenada, and pick up the colonies by default? How's that sound?
Perhaps contrary to the thread's title, the Muslim presence in America might not strictly be an Ottoman affair, but their collaberation with the Emirate of Granada during the mid-1400's might have helped them survive long enough to send ships in the wake of the Castilians and Portuguese to establish a few enclaves across the Atlantic. Most of the settlers from the early Ottoman-Granadan expeditions would be Maghrebi or Andalusi Muslims. The Muslim states of Africa might be willing sources of colonists as well.
Wasn't it simpler to subdue Morocco, which had Atlantic access, and launch Ottoman expeditions from, say, Casablanca?
I think from a diplomatic standpoint it would make more sense for the Ottomans to vassalize the Emir of Granada. The presence of a muslim state on the Iberian penninsula would be a constant distraction to the king of Spain (well, kings, depending on POD), with longterm benefits given how the Habsburgs were generally one of the larger thorns in the ottoman's side for a few centuries. On the other hand, conquering Morocco would be an expensive distraction, and rather pointless given how many of the states in that area of North Africa were to some extent or other Ottoman clients.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
I think it would be a lot harder to conquer Morocco than it would to vassalize Granada. It was politically difficult for the Ottomans to go to war with Muslim powers, especially Orthodox ones like Morocco.
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