I was reading old threads about the possibilities involving the marriage of Mary Queen of Scots and Francis II of France and an union of both kingdoms , but I didn't find any scenario about this possibility: WI before his death Francis had been able to make Mary pregnant, but the child is a daughter? And, just to make thing funnier, let's assume that due to complications while giving birth Mary dies. What could happen from here? Would the young princess (let's call her Catherine, as Francis' mother would like) be accepted by the Scots as their Queen?
The daughter of Mary of Scotland and Francis II
- Thread starter Gonzaga
- Start date
most likely they would, there are 3 things that can happen with her, one she dies young the Crown goes to James Hamilton, Duke of Châtellerault, she lives in France and is raised French much like her mother and Scotland goes on with out her much like it did with her mother, she lives but is raised in Scotland, she's raised Protestant like her brother from another TL James was.
Susano
Banned
Thing is Catherine is immidatly Queen of Scots. As such, she would most likely be raised in Scotland, especially if her father Francis of France dies 1560 as IOTL. But even if not it would just be odd to have the Queen of Scots be at the French court... okay, Mary was, but... hm, I still say she would be raised in Scotland, where without parents she would most likely be a toy of the various poolitical (and religious) factions...
But if she is raised in France, wouldn't her throne be usurped? By 1560 the Scots had their queen living outside the country for 12 years, and I would expect other 14 or 15 years before Catherine be sent there.
Also, there is the issue of possible husbands. I can imagine Catherine de Medicis and the Guises competing over the possible candidates they want to see as the Queen of Scotland's husband and creator of the future royal dynasty.
It would be interesting if she becomes a Protestant while in Scotland and later is made the heir of Elizabeth I. I wonder who would she marry in this case (if a Stuart or some Protestant foreign prince).
Susano
Banned
Given teh circumstances in Scotland, such a conversion is possible. And if Elizabeth doesnt marry as IOTL, she will probably be named heir as James was IOTL. So the question is indeed who would be the husband? Too bad that Nassau-Orange doesnt quite work... hm, most foreign royals are a problem now, what with them being Catholci, so what remains is Scandinavia or German princes. Hm... for wacky personal unions: Future Charles IX of Sweden (of course at that time just the third son of the King, so this could work even if its tried to avoid having personal unions 
), or Christian I, future Prince-Elector of Saxony
), or Christian I, future Prince-Elector of Saxony Fredrick II of Denmark is a possible Husband for Catherine Queen of the Scots because he attempted to marry Elisabeth and failed so why not go for the Queen of Scotland
Susano
Banned
Fredrick II of Denmark is a possible Husband for Catherine Queen of the Scots because he attempted to marry Elisabeth and failed so why not go for the Queen of Scotland
Because hed already be married at that time. Elisbeth I is an entire generation before this Catherine, after all
And his son Christian (IV) would be too young.
Given teh circumstances in Scotland, such a conversion is possible. And if Elizabeth doesnt marry as IOTL, she will probably be named heir as James was IOTL. So the question is indeed who would be the husband? Too bad that Nassau-Orange doesnt quite work... hm, most foreign royals are a problem now, what with them being Catholci, so what remains is Scandinavia or German princes. Hm... for wacky personal unions: Future Charles IX of Sweden (of course at that time just the third son of the King, so this could work even if its tried to avoid having personal unions
I like the Charles idea, although I'm not sure if the Protestant Swedish nobles would call him to be their king now is he living abroad (and as it would link Sweden to other kingdoms' problems). But is still a nice solution, Denmark would probably go crazy with it.
Other idea is that she could marry Henry of Navarre. IOTL he married Margaret of Valois in 1572, but I think that wouldn't be far fetched to have Catherine betrothed to him earlier than it. So they marry around 1574, and when the succession crisis happen in France you have again the possibility of a union between France, England and Scotland, but now under a Protestant king.
Susano
Banned
That would be the Paris Mass Henry, right? Hm, its a good candidate, but I doubt an union would happen. Thing is... if he marries Catherine in 1574, then he is automatcially Prince/King Consort. That on its own is bad enough in France, but it also means he just wont covert to Catholicism. Hence I dont think Henry III would support his claim as IOTL, leading to a very different War of the Three Henries...
But its good of coure that England that way would, so to say, refresh its claims to the French throne
But its good of coure that England that way would, so to say, refresh its claims to the French throne
That would be the Paris Mass Henry, right? Hm, its a good candidate, but I doubt an union would happen. Thing is... if he marries Catherine in 1574, then he is automatcially Prince/King Consort. That on its own is bad enough in France, but it also means he just wont covert to Catholicism. Hence I dont think Henry III would support his claim as IOTL, leading to a very different War of the Three Henries...
But its good of coure that England that way would, so to say, refresh its claims to the French throne
Sure!
Imagine the title their son (let's call him Henry) could claim:Henry, by the Grace of God, King of England, France, Navarre and Ireland, King of Scots, co-Prince of Andorra, Duke of Albret, Beaumont and Vendôme, Count of Foix, Armagnac, Comminges, Bigorre and Marle, Lord of Béarn, and Donezan; Count of Provence, Forcalquier and the lands adjacent; Dauphin of Viennois, Count of Valentinois and of Diois, Defender of the Faith and of the Church of England and also of Ireland in Earth, under Jesus Christ, Supreme Head.
well Fredrick II of Denmark married Sophie of Mecklenburg who was born in 1557 so that would make Catherine, Queen of the Scots only 3 years younger so i think Fredrick II is still viable but the idea of Henry marrying her is very appealing as well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_of_Mecklenburg-Güstrow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_of_Mecklenburg-Güstrow
If Francis II and Mary have a posthumous daughter, then who would be her guardian? I would think it would be one of the "Four Marys" who were Queen Mary's ladies in waiting.
Catherine de Medici threw Mary out of France more or less following Francis II's death, and I'm not sure how the Queen Mother of France would feel about the infant produced by her late son and daughter-in-law. I think the child would stay in France, being a French royal princess after all.
If the daugher survives (and of couse she will in any scenario because its no fun if he doesn't) then she continues to be Queen of Scotland, but without any real ability to rule. With the Treaty of Edinburgh the ascendent Protestants have cut ties with France, despite the fact that their infant Queen is being brought up in that country. So, I would propose that Scotland continue in its state of relative anarchy, with the overthrow and death of Mary of Guise and the fictional rule of an infant Queen.
I think the birth of a posthumous daughter would result in the overthrow of the senior Stewart line. I think James Hamilton might be able to get English support in launching a coup. The Scots did not want to be ruled by either France or England, and with an infant Queen in the power of the French, it is clear that Scotland now needs a King. James Hamilton is the closest to the throne, although there is the possbility that James Stewart, Mary's bastard half-brother, could launch a bid. James seems like he was a good governor, crushing those who opposed Mary in the beginning of her reign and then crushing Mary's forces after her abdictation. I think James Stewart could probably get English support as well, since his succession to the throne would end the possibility of using Scotland as a launch-pad for a claim on the English throne.
I think one definite result of this POD is that the Stuarts (or Stewarts, since Mary's spelling might not ever come into common usage) never succeed to the English throne. In that case, the descendents of Charles Brandon and Mary Tudor are going to inherit. If that is the case and all marriages end up being the same, then Anne Stanley will become the next Queen of England upon Elizabeth I's death.
Catherine de Medici threw Mary out of France more or less following Francis II's death, and I'm not sure how the Queen Mother of France would feel about the infant produced by her late son and daughter-in-law. I think the child would stay in France, being a French royal princess after all.
If the daugher survives (and of couse she will in any scenario because its no fun if he doesn't) then she continues to be Queen of Scotland, but without any real ability to rule. With the Treaty of Edinburgh the ascendent Protestants have cut ties with France, despite the fact that their infant Queen is being brought up in that country. So, I would propose that Scotland continue in its state of relative anarchy, with the overthrow and death of Mary of Guise and the fictional rule of an infant Queen.
I think the birth of a posthumous daughter would result in the overthrow of the senior Stewart line. I think James Hamilton might be able to get English support in launching a coup. The Scots did not want to be ruled by either France or England, and with an infant Queen in the power of the French, it is clear that Scotland now needs a King. James Hamilton is the closest to the throne, although there is the possbility that James Stewart, Mary's bastard half-brother, could launch a bid. James seems like he was a good governor, crushing those who opposed Mary in the beginning of her reign and then crushing Mary's forces after her abdictation. I think James Stewart could probably get English support as well, since his succession to the throne would end the possibility of using Scotland as a launch-pad for a claim on the English throne.
I think one definite result of this POD is that the Stuarts (or Stewarts, since Mary's spelling might not ever come into common usage) never succeed to the English throne. In that case, the descendents of Charles Brandon and Mary Tudor are going to inherit. If that is the case and all marriages end up being the same, then Anne Stanley will become the next Queen of England upon Elizabeth I's death.
Firstly assuming Mary dies in childbirth and the same year Francis II dies - the Scots lords are going to start insisting that the child be returned to Scotland, I also suspect that England's ambassador is also going to start offering suggestions that the child be brought up in England under the care of Queen Elizabeth. Catherine Medici and the Guises are also going to argue for her to remain in France.
Assuming the French hold on to her and she is brought up as a catholic then she becomes a major headache to the English. The Scots will care less until she reaches marriageable - I suspect that they will continue to make policy etc under their own warrant and ignore their young Queen.
I doubt any attempt to depose her at that point and whilst Elizabeth's council might have been willing to make merry north of the border - the Queen herself was incredibly personally conscious of the legitimacy of monarchy and was loathe throughout her reign to support anyone she considered to be in open rebellion against their lawful sovereign (it caused her issues with Scotland throughout Mary Stewart's life, and with both the protestants in the Netherlands and in France despite her personal views of the rights of their cause)
As to who cares for the little Queen of Scots - i suspect she stays in the French royal household with her younger aunt and uncles...but a major influence despite the relations between Catherine Medici and the Guises will be her great grandmother Antoinette of Bourbon, yet another remarkable 16th century woman who lived on until the 1580's.
Her marriage will be difficult though and much will depend on who she marries what happens with regard the English succession - she is technically the legal heir of Elizabeth (and will be regarded by such by much of Europe) however as a Catholic will be unacceptable to the English Council - lots of attempts to prove her lack of legitimacy or those of her mother, far more prominance to Henry VIII's will and his third act of succession, even more pressure for Elizabeth to marry, pressure on her to legitimise Catherine Grey's sons perhaps. However less harsh measures against Catholics with no plots to put an imprisoned Mary Stuart on the throne, Spain as an ally for some time and an anarchic Scotland, no Spanish Armada....
Assuming the French hold on to her and she is brought up as a catholic then she becomes a major headache to the English. The Scots will care less until she reaches marriageable - I suspect that they will continue to make policy etc under their own warrant and ignore their young Queen.
I doubt any attempt to depose her at that point and whilst Elizabeth's council might have been willing to make merry north of the border - the Queen herself was incredibly personally conscious of the legitimacy of monarchy and was loathe throughout her reign to support anyone she considered to be in open rebellion against their lawful sovereign (it caused her issues with Scotland throughout Mary Stewart's life, and with both the protestants in the Netherlands and in France despite her personal views of the rights of their cause)
As to who cares for the little Queen of Scots - i suspect she stays in the French royal household with her younger aunt and uncles...but a major influence despite the relations between Catherine Medici and the Guises will be her great grandmother Antoinette of Bourbon, yet another remarkable 16th century woman who lived on until the 1580's.
Her marriage will be difficult though and much will depend on who she marries what happens with regard the English succession - she is technically the legal heir of Elizabeth (and will be regarded by such by much of Europe) however as a Catholic will be unacceptable to the English Council - lots of attempts to prove her lack of legitimacy or those of her mother, far more prominance to Henry VIII's will and his third act of succession, even more pressure for Elizabeth to marry, pressure on her to legitimise Catherine Grey's sons perhaps. However less harsh measures against Catholics with no plots to put an imprisoned Mary Stuart on the throne, Spain as an ally for some time and an anarchic Scotland, no Spanish Armada....