WI: Nova Roma circa 250 BC

Around 250 BC, during the First Punic War, a number of roman ships are blown off course and eventually arrive in South America. With no way home and a military tradition, they establish a new nation. Assuming no crazy old world shenanigans (that is, pre-contact, Old World history goes normally), what would happen?

Cyclone said:

Around 250 BC, during the First Punic War, a number of roman ships are blown off course and eventually arrive in South America. With no way home and a military tradition, they establish a new nation. Assuming no crazy old world shenanigans (that is, pre-contact, Old World history goes normally), what would happen?

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That is very unrealistic, to be blown of course out of the mediterranean and so far past the iberian or african cost that you can't imagine turning back? You would need a different rationale for this, such as digging up some waffle about ancient trade links between the old world and the new world.

But anyway, a new state could either flop or flourish. It's very boring to have it flop though, but it would be cool if it forms some sort of weird Aztec (well proto-Aztec)/Roman Empire.

Chances are good though that European explorers would not realise the connection until many years later, by that time the obvious Roman features would have merged into the exotic. It might remain unknown until maybe even the 20th century when temple excavations reveal latin tomb inscriptions.

Earlier smallpox contact, results in a population 1600 or so years later that is much more resistant to European diseases when the next wave arrives. The Romans also bring the knowledge of metal working with them which wasn't used or as developed in pre-Columbian SA. There is also definitive knowledge that there are other humans living across the oceans. That changes the entire dynamic when Europeans arrive centuries later.

Torqumada

More likely to be carthaginian ships trading with Cornwall for tin... (I imagine there's some threads on here somewhere that deal with Carthaginians in the New World)

Better candidates might be the Carhagians, who had colonies down the west African coast. Or...anyone here with knowledge on the first Punic war?
Could the romans have sent a naval expedition after said colonies? The Romans were less familiar with atlantic sailing conditions, and would probably be more vulnerable to going off course.

If taken off course by a storm, it is unlikly that many ships would have made it, though.

They would have been most likly to make landfall in Brazil, which appears to have had some considerable Terra Preta cultures going. However, if they missed the tip, they might land futher south.

What the Romans could bring:

-Advanced military skills
-Metalworking, armor, weapons
-Advanced engineering skills, fortifications, etc
-Advanced govermental and societal models
-More developed theological systems.
-Shipbuilding memes (big one)
-A wide genetic package.
-Alphabet

What they'd be unlikly to bring:

-Horses (Even if brought, they'd be unlikly to survive the voyage)
-Improved crop package (easten, at best)
-A number of skills would not be present among the soldiers. Knowledge of their existence might help to recover them if sufficient peacetime exists.
-females

Maybes:
Smallpox, other diseases.

Note: I made an error. I was thinking that the Romans taking Iberia was part of the First Punic War, not the second (which it actually was). Move the Roman fleet to 218-210 BC. Once you've got naval movement around Iberia, it's not unreasonable (or at least, not as unreasonable) for ships to be blown into the Canary Current, which leads pretty much direct-route to South America, and sailing against the current is difficult. If you've got some ships out near/west of Iberia, it's not too implausible they could be caught in the Canary Current. Sailing from South America to Europe (or North Africa) goes against the current.

Good catch. Seems a fleet going off-course around Iberia (and the Romans would be more likly to slip up in the atlantic) would seem to end up in the Caribbean.

I think there was a Romans-in-the-caribbean TL here some years ago.

Going south of Brazil would seem to require blundering even futher south to start off with, and be less probable.

Is it possible that the whole thing could start due to sick/incompetent navigators rather than a storm? There would be a much stronger force landing that way.

It's not exactly as if a storm at sea will take one from the coast off Iberia to anywhere near the Americas.. and it's certainly not as if any navigators would be incompetent enough to not realise that they're sailing in exactly the wrong direction for weeks. It's not exactly hard to tell that you're sailing into the setting sun (ie west and the open waters) rather than into the rising sun (civilisation).

Umbral said:

-Horses (Even if brought, they'd be unlikly to survive the voyage)
-Improved crop package (easten, at best)
-A number of skills would not be present among the soldiers. Knowledge of their existence might help to recover them if sufficient peacetime exists.
-females

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Horses aren't certain, although likely (if we're talking about relatively big fleet, it bound to have several honchos with oversized egos who would have their warhorses; would those horses survive the voyage remains to be seen). However, sheep and goats are almost certain. Now, those makes lousy draft animals, but are better then nothing. Besides, you might get several cows and donkeys if you are lucky.

Romans would bring a lot of new crops (basically full set of Mediterranean grain and pulses) and they would discover enough places suitable for this type of agriculture. As far as skills are concerned, I suspect they would bring full contemporary set, as a legion was supposed to be a self-sustainable unit and had all kinds of craftsmen.

Umbral said:

Better candidates might be the Carhagians, who had colonies down the west African coast. Or...anyone here with knowledge on the first Punic war?
Could the romans have sent a naval expedition after said colonies? The Romans were less familiar with atlantic sailing conditions, and would probably be more vulnerable to going off course.

Click to expand...

The Carthaginians had no colonies on the west African coast...at least none close enough to South America where it would be possible for a fleet to get blown off course and land there. They did, apparently, send an expedition of exploration into the region under Hanno. He did, supposedly, found some trading posts on the Moroccan Atlantic coast. But nothing south of that point.

Since there won't be many Romans and no women they'll probably intermarry with locals. If it survives the first generation or so a stable state might be established and when other explorers come they'll be surprised to see locals speaking Latin and behaving Roman.

I actually find the idea Carthaginians more appeling, say that you get a farirly large grouppe fleeing west to (again) found a new home land, cross the greath occeans too bee free from the vile romans

Constantius said:

It's not exactly as if a storm at sea will take one from the coast off Iberia to anywhere near the Americas.. and it's certainly not as if any navigators would be incompetent enough to not realise that they're sailing in exactly the wrong direction for weeks. It's not exactly hard to tell that you're sailing into the setting sun (ie west and the open waters) rather than into the rising sun (civilisation).

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Actually, that can happen. Some kinds of weather carry cloud cover sufficiently heavy that you cannot see where the sun rises and sets. It is not good for sailing, but there can be some winds.

However, I am unsure at how much ability the Romans would have had to return, once in the currents. I am not sure how much of a tacking angle they had, and if becalmed, they'd not have a lot of options.

robertp6165 said:

The Carthaginians had no colonies on the west African coast...at least none close enough to South America where it would be possible for a fleet to get blown off course and land there. They did, apparently, send an expedition of exploration into the region under Hanno. He did, supposedly, found some trading posts on the Moroccan Atlantic coast. But nothing south of that point.

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Known Carthagian colonies on the atlantic coast of Africa included Lixus, Chellah and Mogador. The location of Hannos colonies are not known, but Kerne has been guessed at being some distance south of the rest.

The western coast of Africa is not the same as the disputed region today know as "west africa".

Unrealistic.

The first European colonies in the New World in the 16th century were extremelly vulnerable and many of them failed.

The idea that a bunch of castaways could successfully start a Roman style civilization without all the necessary prerequisites - crops, domestic animals, iron tools, all kinds of other supplies, women - is ridiculous.

This is what would happen, in the BEST case:

- most of the ships sink during the "voyage" and most of the remaining ships' crews are sick, dehydrated, weak - simply put, they're dying. When they've almost given up hope, they see land.

- let's say the make a landfall somewhere in the Caribbean (the most likely place to be driven to by the sea currents). What will they do? It's completely alien territory to them - they've never seen tropical islands before, they don't know which plants are edible, what to hunt, they don't know anything about the climate...

- Fortunately, they meet friendly natives with whom they exchange some iron weapons and jewellery for food, so they recover from the hardships of the journey.

- Most of the Romans who made it to the New World are soldiers, not farmers, fishermen, hunters or craftsmen. They don't know how to survive in this strange land. But they're lucky again: a powerful local chief realizes their potential as allies and invites them to live in his village in exchange for helping him to defeat his tribal enemies elsewhere on the large island. In this the Romans are good - their military training, iron weapons and armor give them huge advantage over the tribal warriors, who are easily scared by their tactics. The chief then rewards his Roman allies with women and land to live on. The Romans gradually integrate into the native society, start their own families. At the same time, some of their knowledge is adapted by the Arawak people. They learn how to build bigger wooden buildings (I assume the Roman military engineers survived the voyage), how to write, the Romans teach them the basics of mathematics and most of all, they tell them stories about the powerful land across the ocean and the Gods they worship. Natives love the stories and eventually, they become a part of their mythology.

- Centuries have passed and the Spanish explorers find a surprisingly advanced native tribe. They're surprised to see some people who look more like them than the other indians - tall, light skin, curly hair, green eyes... The real shock comes when they recognize some Latin words in their language, usually related to the tools they use and the Gods they worship. Some of their names sound familiar too. The mystery is solved when the natives take the Spanish explorers to the temple, where they see rusted iron helmets, short swords, even something resembling remnants of an body armor. A monk taking part in the expedition recognizes these artifacts as Roman and explains to the others, that these people must be descendants of the ancient Romans. They look at him in awe...

Winner said:

This is what would happen, in the BEST case:

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Well, there's a small question of numbers. "Chief of Indians" is unlikely to control more than 1000 or so population, so several hundreds to couple of thousands legionnaries are likely to double local population and actually control the chief. And why do you think that legionnaries didn't know squat about how to farm or do crafts?

General Mung Beans said:

Since there won't be many Romans and no women they'll probably intermarry with locals. If it survives the first generation or so a stable state might be established and when other explorers come they'll be surprised to see locals speaking Latin and behaving Roman.

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In a situation like that, its pretty unlikely that children would grow up speaking their fathers' language. You'd probably get some kind of creole or a situation like that caribbean island where the men speak the 'man's language' and the woman and children speak the 'woman's language'

CanadianGoose said:

Well, there's a small question of numbers. "Chief of Indians" is unlikely to control more than 1000 or so population, so several hundreds to couple of thousands legionnaries are likely to double local population and actually control the chief. And why do you think that legionnaries didn't know squat about how to farm or do crafts?

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Probably means he doesn't know much about the Roman army. I'm not exceptionally knowledgeable in that area, and even I know that they weren't nearly that specialised, and were required to know how to set up what amounts to a small town, among other things.

Winner said:

Unrealistic.

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Winner,

Agreed. I was with you right up to when you typed this bit...

Most of the Romans who made it to the New World are soldiers, not farmers, fishermen, hunters or craftsmen. They don't know how to survive in this strange land.

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The legions of Rome - from before the Marian Reforms, through the long death of the Republic, and up through 3rd Century CE - were simply crammed full of men with "civilian" skill sets. Hell, after the legions morphed from short service conscripts to long service professionals, you had a better chance of joining if you already were a craftsman of some sort.

You name it and a legion could do it; butchering, baking, or candlestick making. They grew or raised a big part of their own food, only buying bulk grains from suppliers. They made their own clothes, armor, and footwear. They had their own blacksmiths, foundaries, and factories. (Even now we still find buried caches of iron nails near legion forts that weigh in the tons. Keeping the boys busy making nails was apparently one Roman cure for the cafard.) They cut timber, made lumber, quarried stone, fired kilns, and performed hundreds of other tasks.

I'd have trouble believing a thousand or so ordinary Roman citizens would possess enough skills to recreate their homes after a shipwreck. However, I'd have no trouble believing that a thousand legionnaires could so.

I do have lots of touble with this "caught in a storm off Iberia, end up in the Carribean" POD however. It's too far and would take too much time. A storm of enough severity and length to do the job would also be strong enough and long enough to sink a classical vessel well before it crossed the Atlantic.

And somehow landing in South America is even more implausible. Check the latitudes, you'll have to be well south of Morocco before you're "even" with South America and then you'd be in the "horse" latitudes. Storms blow out of that region, not into it.

A lucky or nearly fatal voyage for a merchant that opens the Canaries route across the Atlantic and starts a trickle of trade? Maybe. Thousands of refugee Carthaginians or the XXth Legion being blown off course to the New World? Never.


Regards,
Bill

Bill Cameron said:

I do have lots of touble with this "caught in a storm off Iberia, end up in the Carribean" POD however. It's too far and would take too much time. A storm of enough severity and length to do the job would alos be strong enough and long enough to sink a classical vessel well before it crossed the Atlantic.

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Was going to ask- are classical-era Roman (or Carthaginian or even Greek) ships fit enough to cross the Atlantic for any occassion? They're designed for the smaller Mediterranean and its demands, not for the great lengths and harsher storms of the Atlantic Ocean to the west.

Ofaloaf said:

Was going to ask- are classical-era Roman (or Carthaginian or even Greek) ships fit enough to cross the Atlantic for any occassion? They're designed for the smalled Mediterranean and its demands, not for the great lengths and harsher storms of the Atlantic Ocean to the west.

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If this could cross the Pacific, then a vessel tens of thousands of years more advanced could cross the less violent Atlantic.