ATL Dark ages map

[Hermanubis]

Originally Posted by G.Bone

-kay- here's an updated version

hmm.... more like this

[G.Bone]

Dude....that's a lot of land forked over to Russia. Wouldn't the Byzantines recognize the stupidity of having them so near?

[Hermanubis]

*nitpicky nitpicky*

[Hermanubis]

Originally Posted by G.Bone

Dude....that's a lot of land forked over to Russia. Wouldn't the Byzantines recognize the stupidity of having them so near?

The Danube had been the Northern limit of Roman Territory in that Part of the World for Centuries and Centuries.

[Midgard]

Originally Posted by G.Bone

Dude....that's a lot of land forked over to Russia. Wouldn't the Byzantines recognize the stupidity of having them so near?

In OTL, the Byzantines and the Russians pretty much divided Bulgaria among themselves during the reign of Nicephorus II Phocas, who was generally considered one of the better Emperors of the Xth century - so it is not too unlikely for the Byzantines to make a rather dumb decision of this nature, as they have done exactly that in OTL. It did create many problems for them down the line, not in the least the full-scale Russian invasion through Bulgaria, which John Tzimisces had to deal with, and defeat Kievan prince Svyatoslav thoroughly to make Svyatoslav give up his claims on Bulgaria.

In ATL, Nicephorus III's campaigns have the same effect on Byzantine/Russian relations as John Tzimisces' victories over Russians in OTL - they make Russians look elsewhere for easy plunder and conquest, and the Byzantines themselves are content at stopping at Danube, which they believe to be their rightful northern border. This is, of course, not to say that the state of affairs may not change at some point or the other...

[Midgard]

The borders solidify, the Empires squabble, and all hell is going to break loose in... the coming installment(s)

917 - Andronicus IV of Byzantine Empire dies, one of the last victims of the plague. He is succeeded by his son, who at fourteen years of age may not be the youngest monarch to assume the Eastern throne, but who is definitely not the most responsible nor able. Romanus II is a hedonist, believing it is his god-given right to enjoy the spoils of the Empire he inherited - and thus much of his reign is consumed by court intrigue, increasingly elaborate (and costly) public spectacles, and near-bankrupcy of the Empire due to Romanus' showing of obvious favoritism to landed aristocracy that quickly usurped much of the Imperial revenue they would be now supposed to collect for their suzerain. In Venice, Michael IV does proclaim that the Empire is indeed "Roman", and the official capital should be in Rome - but since by now both the Emperor and the majority of the Senate permanently reside in Venice, the Imperial dignity is maintained with a semi-annual showcase of the Emperor and the Senate in the old capital. For all practical purposes, all business of government - as a matter of fact, pretty much all business is still done in Venice.

918 - The Khazar presense is first felt beyond the Caspian, as their territorial ambitions bring them in conflict with the Pechenegs, a nomadic steppe tribe of probably Turkic origin. Despite the Pecheneg ferocity and undoubted fighting skills, it is the superior weaponry and organization of the Khazars that carry the day. While the Pecheneg raids would be a nightmare of many a Khazar colony, the Pechenegs would never become the kind of threat to the Khazar survival as they were in OTL.

919 - The Vandal settlers in what would be OTL Florida (the land they call New Carthage) meet with the people of Ocmulgee nation, who are a part of what OTL historians call "the Mississippian culture". The Ocmulgee had only recently converted their way of life to sedentary agricultural society, and, due to their higher numbers, initially are able to hold back the Vandal expansion. Over the next five years, as the diseases and advanced weaponry of Vandals take their toll, the Ocmulgee are pushed back, finally converting to Christianity and acknowledging the overlordship of the Vandal king.

920 - The last independent Chinese kingdoms on Chinese mainland are subdued by the Mongols. The heir of the last Chinese Emperor flees to Taiwan, where a rump successor state is established, claiming to be a direct continuation of the non-Mongol China. After a failed attempt at naval assault, the Mongols pretty much ignore it, being more concerned with subjugation of Japan.

921 - A major rebellion in Gaul takes two years to subdue, and much longer to restore Venetian control to the province. Gradually, the Gaulish nobles are incorporated into the Venetian structure, being given Senatorial seats and Roman titles - at the same time there is large penetration of Italians into Gaul, thus resulting in increase in centralized control from Venice, as more and more Italians end up in positions of local power.

922 - A new society takes shape on the shores of Newfoundland, as the Norse and the native influences merge to create a new culture, separate from its predecessors and yet borrowing liberally from them. When the Norse King of Odinheim takes a daughter of prominent native chief as his wife, the integration of two nations into one is given a major boost. From there on, a mixed blood Norse-native dynasty will rule in Vinnland.

924 - The Russians, having rebuilt much of the plague's damage, are looking at the tribes of Prussians, Poles, Lithuanians, and others that are occupying an area to the west of them. By now, Christianity represents a significant minority religion in Russia - however, between the Norse paganism, Khazar Judaism, far-away al-Din and the native Russian pagan religion (which in turn borrows heavily from Norse mythology and ceremony), it faces serious competition, threatening to tear up the Russian kingdom apart. Realizing that a uniform religious policy must be followed, and that having a respectable non-pagan religion would greatly improve his relations with his neighbours - not to mention would give a very good pretext for expansion into pagan-controlled territories, the Kievan prince Yuri, the heir of Yaroslav, decides to inquire on the different religions, and to align himself with the one that would benefit the Russian people most. He believes that the Dini are too far off, and to be the only Dini power in a predominantly Christian, pagan, and Jewish area is rather unwise; at the same time, seeing the Khazar expansion to the east, he believes there may come a time when the Russians would need to spread their dominions there - and a religious difference is as good a pretext as any. There remains only Christianity, both of Byzantine, and of Venetian varieties. By the sheer virtue of relative closeness, and the fact that much Russian trade depended on Byzantium to the south, Yuri is strongly inclined towards Orthodox Christianity. The one problem is that he would rather make the Byzantines pay very high price for his nation's conversion. An opportunity presents itself when a disgruntled Byzantine general Photius decides to revolt, leading large portion of the Byzantine army. As Romanus II panics, a Russian ambassador tactfully approaches him and reminds him that his neighbours to the north are more than willing to help - in exchange for a few concessions. The few concessions are, of course, a king's ransom, and a hand of Romanus' younger sister, the porphyrogenita Zoe, for Yuri in marriage. To spice things up, Yuri promises to convert to Christianity if he will be allowed his own Patriarch. A stronger monarch may have tried to resolve the problem by his own means; Romanus preferred to let the others do the talking, the fighting, and negotiating. Even though the Russians were still not allowed their own Patriarch, having to settle for an Archbishop of Kiev, the other terms of their demands were still met, and shortly thereafter a large Russian force landed in Constantinople, with the help of which the defeat of Photius was all but assured. For his contributions to the cause of conversion, the Russian prince Yuri was later canonized by the Orthodox Church, and became known as Saint Yuri.

926 - Converting his people to Christianity proved to be more troublesome than Yuri has imagined, however, after two years of clandestine politicking and unmasked "aggressive persuasion", he could look at what has been his target all along - Prussia and Lithuania. Under the pretext of a holy war to convert the heathen, Yuri successfully defeats and annexes various tribes one by one, until his dominions extend well into what would have been OTL's Poland and Germany. Better yet for him, remembering some of the problems he had during his own succession (for he was not his father's eldest son, and a small civil war had to be fought for him to ensure that instead of his gavelkind-promised small lot, he would become the ruler of all of Kiev), and taking a number of ideas from the Byzantines, Yuri changes election laws in Russia to where only one of his sons would inherit, the rest given honorary titles, but no land. This helps to centralize the power in Russia in the hands of Veliki Kniaz, and to prevent the dissolution of power over his sons.

928 - By now, Romanus II's government has run into serious debt due to unforeseen expenses of civil strife and to unwise government spending. However, a sudden solution walked through the doors of the palace. Ever since the fall of the Roman power in the West, due to much Christian prejudice against certain occupations such as moneylenders, such crucial, albeit not very glamorous duties were delegated to non-Christians. In the general atmosphere of relative prosperity in the West, Jewish bankers and lenders had prosperred, being a voice of sound economic policy that guided many an Emperor. Unfortunately, the prejudices do run deep, and with very few exceptions, Jews were still considered second-class citizens in the West and throughout most of the East. While the Khazar Kaganate follows Judaism, many of the more Orthodox European Jews feel that the Khazar religion is Judaism in name only, and have a desire to build their own state that follows the tenets of Judaism and provides a free place for European Jews to move to and live their lives free of persecution. Thus, hearing of Romanus II's monetary troubles, a group of Jewish bankers offers to pay him extraordinary sums of money in return for a free Jewish state in Palestine. Such a state would be self-governing, and promised to ally to Byzantium and to pay tribute. Seeing that Palestine itself, with exception of Jerusalem and few of the richer trading cities, is rather worthless to him, Romanus accepts. While some of the Jewish faithful are not happy that Jerusalem remains under Christian control, the vast majority celebrates the founding of the new state of Zion, which covers most of Palestine sans Jerusalem (which is technically a "free city" with the right of religious pilgrimage for both Christians and non-Christians, but practically controlled by the Byzantines).

930 - The Norse kingdom of Angleland officially separates from Denmark - even though for practical reasons, Denmark never had any real control there. The king of Denmark chooses to let them go, instead being more concerned with increased Venetian presense near his borders, and maintaining his Scandinavian territories. In a meanwhile, the nation of Eire (Ireland), strengthened by streams of Celtic, and Anglish refugees from Britain, is facing a population crisis, as the island is simply too small to support all of its inhabitants, and retaking of Britain is nearly impossible due to Norse military supremacy. Hearing of Norse explorations to the West, Eire sends ships in that general direction. While only some of the ships return, they do find Vinnland, and the lands to the south of it. The largest Irish settlement would be closer to OTL's Virginia, and would grow exponentially as the flow of people from Ireland into the New World continues.

933 - The major difference between New Eire and the other colonies is that it still is subject to the mother country, whereas the rest (including the Vandals, who are at this point still unknown to the other colonizing nations) are independent and self-sufficient in every respect. Within a few years, New Eire occupies the territory of roughly OTL's Virginia and Maryland, with the largest city named New Londinium by a descendant of an Anglish immigrant who rose to prominence in the colonization scene.

935 - A Venetian engineer experimenting with the recently employed steam engines finds a way to use the steam engine for horseless propulsion. The land-based machines are slow, unwieldy, and still somewhat expensive to make, however, on water the steam engine proves its worth. Soon, the Venetian fleet trades its sails and rowing galleys for steamers, which then spread to most of the Mediterranean, and to the Indian Ocean by the enterprising Axumites.

936 - The influx of already sophisticated civilizations of Gaul who were integrated as citizens instead of being directly enslaved, along with the growth of urban population of free men and women resulted in shortage of serf or slave labor in the Venetian Empire. With the new technological innovations' impact felt in industry and manufacturing of the Empire, a shift to a more industrial base developed. The first factories, initially producing military supplies, but later developing to produce more mundane items like clothing, paper, and other commodities, are built in Venice, Ravenna, Milan, and Naples. Over the next several decades, the industrial might of Venetian Empire would be the envy of all Europe - and something that the European rulers will quickly attempt to duplicate.

938 - An Axumite trader travels in the interior of Africa when he discovers a group of people calling themselves Bantu. While they had only recently discovered iron working, they had been building an empire of their own, with the capital at the city of Zimbabwe. Over the next several decades, as the Bantu trading missions become more profitable, much of the Axumite technology spreads to the Bantu kingdom of Great Zimbabwe.

939 - Romanus II of Byzantium dies, and is not mourned very deeply. His eldest son takes the throne as Andronicus V. Conscious of developments taking place in Italy, and of the fact that much of Byzantine economy is still rather backwards, driven by semi-enserfed peasants and agricultural production, Andronicus' first action is to hire experienced Venetian engineers and to attempt to improve his Empire's infrastructure.

Next update - later on today or tomorrow.

[Midgard]

Originally Posted by Hapsburg

why no Charlemagne in 742-814? Charlemagne kool ruler! Hapsburg smash thread with boulder! RRAAAHHHGG!!!
*tries to lift 800000000000000+ ton boulder, but it collpses on his head*

ow.

In this scenario I would imagine Charlemagne and his particular ancestors being butterflied away, with the POD being in 540 AD or so. Since Charlemagne's particular branch of family came into prominence partially as a result of Muslim invasion of Europe (battle of Tours and all that), even if Carolingians still existed, they would not come to the same positions of power and prominence as in OTL. In addition, even if Charlemagne was still born, the particular circumstances of his time implied a major power vacuum in Western Europe, which allowed him to rise to where he got to - with no large power vacuum, he would only at best be a pretty well known Frankish king, but not a great Empire-builder and unifier he was known to OTL historians.

[Hermanubis]

^Interesting, interesting, will be looking forward to the next update.

[G.Bone]

...and here's an update on the map.

I didn't know how much of Newfoundland was TTL's Newfoundland so I colored in where OTL's Newfoundland is in OTL.

Oh and the dark redish color is "Zion".

[Hermanubis]

Nice map, G.Bone. In case you haven’t seen it before, this site can be helpful as a resource for maps. (Just a BTW. It kind of looks like you’ve put Jerusalem in the Caliphate a few times when Its not supposed to be…, any way, its an interesting site all-round, so… )




* I’m not trying to be an ass, hope you don’t take this the wrong way…

[G.Bone]

grrr......

It's very hard to draw the "global" powers when all you have is "oh it's where Jerusalem is"- there's no real specific designation on if it's within OTL's Isreal or back in the dodding ages.....

I had to search on google where the heck was Great Zimbabwe.

[Hermanubis]

Originally Posted by G.Bone

grrr......

It's very hard to draw the "global" powers when all you have is "oh it's where Jerusalem is"- there's no real specific designation on if it's within OTL's Isreal or back in the dodding ages.....

I had to search on google where the heck was Great Zimbabwe.

Ah, sorry

I’m kind like that about things, thou (oh, but just a little bit)


(...just a little to the south... )

[G.Bone]

You sir, are an ass.

(no insults intended)

[Hapsburg]

ah, yes. but, what about Charlemagne? does he ever exist as at least a statesman or a Frankish resiter to Venetian rule in Gaul or Germania?

[G.Bone]

Didn't he answer that?

[Hapsburg]

not that i'm aware of.

[Midgard]

Sorry to disappoint, but today an update is rather unlikely - I am writing it at work, and will not have much time today for one. I will, however, try to get one finished and post it either from home, or tomorrow morning. Thank you for your support, and special thanks to G. Bone for excellent maps!

[Midgard]

Originally Posted by Hapsburg

ah, yes. but, what about Charlemagne? does he ever exist as at least a statesman or a Frankish resiter to Venetian rule in Gaul or Germania?

Charlemagne as we know him was never born in this ATL. However, this is not to say that someone a lot like him (albeit much later) will not surface with a fairly similar ideas...

[Hapsburg]

aye. maybe a descendant of what in OTL was "charlemagne", but here was just....charles, a frankish peasant.

[Hermanubis]

Originally Posted by G.Bone

You sir, are an ass.

(no insults intended)

Ah, alright