ATL Dark ages map
- Thread starter Hermanubis
- Start date
It looks like Justinian's conquests held better than in OTL, and Italy was incorporated into the Empire much better than in OTL. Also, it appears that he did not go after the Vandals, concentrating all efforts on Italy instead, with Egypt revolting away from the Empire some time along the way. Doesn't look like Islam spread as far as it did OTL either. The Bulgars appear to be more successful in their conquests as well, getting a foothold in Asia Minor, although it seems that they still couldn't capture Constantinople.
Another way it could have happened is if the Western, not the Eastern Roman Empire survived the disintegration of its counterpart, albeit with reduced territories. Thus, the reconquest of the VIth century was made from the West, recapturing Asia Minor, Crimea, Middle East, and southern Spain. Egypt, however, was never completely reconquered, and became a "foederati" kingdom, paying the Romans a nominal tribute, but otherwise independent. By the time Islam appeared, the Empire's Middle East possessions seemed to have partially fallen away, with Bulgars eating away at Thrace and Asia Minor, and besieging Constantinople a number of times - resulting in the Imperial capital continuously staying in Rome.
Another way it could have happened is if the Western, not the Eastern Roman Empire survived the disintegration of its counterpart, albeit with reduced territories. Thus, the reconquest of the VIth century was made from the West, recapturing Asia Minor, Crimea, Middle East, and southern Spain. Egypt, however, was never completely reconquered, and became a "foederati" kingdom, paying the Romans a nominal tribute, but otherwise independent. By the time Islam appeared, the Empire's Middle East possessions seemed to have partially fallen away, with Bulgars eating away at Thrace and Asia Minor, and besieging Constantinople a number of times - resulting in the Imperial capital continuously staying in Rome.
Othniel said:
Ah, well when I couldn’t find a map of the exact area that I wanted I just cropped the world map, but the problem is that it doesn’t come out to good, so I have to make it small. Say, does any one have a map similar to the one below but with the Middle East and North Africa?
Thande said:
What indeed! To help you guys out, I’ve decided on a POD around the 530’s. Also, I’ve tweaked the map a little.
Super55 said:
OK, second attempt:
It sounds almost as if Justinian ended up bypassing the Vandals for whatever reason, possibly with the Vandals converting to Orthodoxy instead of staying of Arian persuasion, and thus removing the pretext for the invasion. Down the line, it resulted in Italy being completely returned to Roman control, with the Goths being either completely incorporated or expelled. The monophysite controversy resulted in Egypt breaking off from the Empire, and forming an independent kingdom of its own. While the Arabs still burst out from Arabia, the POD pretty much butterflies Mohammed away, so while they have a charismatic leader or two that lead them into prominence, it is done without Islam ever emerging.
Over the next two centuries, the administrative and political governance of the Empire shifts back to Italy, and the Lombard invasion is repelled, instead creating a "foederati" Lombard state that is supposed to serve as a buffer between Italy and whatever may lay beyond. With less emphasis on the East, the Bulgars are more successful, although they are still not able to take Constantinople.
The POD itself could be the Nika rebellion of 532 succeeding in removing Justinian from the throne, thus the reconquest could be slower, and more manageable as far as maintaining control over Italy. Getting closer?
Super55 said:A little, but check out the name of the Vandal state
Looks like Justinian or Justinian equivalent did succeed in conquering the Vandals, but not in destroying them altogether. Another POD I can think of is Belisarius accepts the Goths' offer to be the Western Emperor, resulting in civil war, during which Egypt and Vandals get their independence back. Gotta love those Dark Ages PODs
midgardmetal said:
Gotta love those Dark Ages PODs
Yup Yup.
Another thing is I’m interested in what you guys think the future holds for ATL(Into the later middle ages and such)
Super55 said:
I think the Eastern portion of the Empire will recover, as long as the Bulgars do not take Constantinople. One potential issue is the Bulgar holdings in Asia Minor - in OTL they did not have the fleet to cross over, and thus were contained in Europe. Even if they do have those holdings in Asia Minor, the Byzantines should be able to retake them rather quickly due to their naval superiority (which, I presume, still holds in TTL, since the Romans/Byzantines control several areas like Crimea, Trebizond, southern shore of the Gibraltar, and the Holy Land, which would generally need to be supplied by sea, and wouldn't be possible to realistically hold without naval superiority).
With no Islam in sight, the Bulgars would probably end up Christian, which should give the Byzantines enough of a reprieve to retake some more of Asia Minor. An interesting development is the apparent lack of powerful, independent Papacy, which means the Church is going to be more decentralized, and with both Rome and Constantinople under firm Imperial contol, it is likely to be an instrument of the state more than anything else.
Also, the map is just before OTL's Viking raids, which, if they still occur (which, considering Scandinavia's prior relative isolation from the rest of Europe, they might), could weaken the Frankish kingdom enough to where the Roman Empire may try to retake all, or portions of Gaul. The Roman territorial ambitions, thus, are likely to be in direction of Gaul and possibly Egypt, although the possibility of keeping Egypt as a buffer state between themselves and the Arabs should not be discounted.
One major difference is that since both Rome and Constantinople are under the firm Roman/Byzantine control, Charlemagne or his equivalent would not be able to form a purely Western European entity like OTL's HRE, thus changing much of the eventual mold in which the Western Europe of OTL formed. With a relatively strong and somewhat centralized state in their midst, the age of European monarchies could happen much earlier than in OTL, both due to attempt to emulate the Romans, as well as due to the practical dangers that having a well-organized, well-ran neighbour country with territorial ambitions could pose to semi-tribal, feudal state where the feudal lords would be quick to switch their loyalties to the invader if it proves advantageous for them - as opposed to OTL situation where Byzantium was generally too remote to exercise its power beyond its immediate surroundings other than keeping its holdings.
One interesting possibility is that Rome/Byzantium has the kind of base that would be useful in exploration of the Atlantic and beyond in their Gibraltar holdings. If there was something to give them a good reason to explore there (possibly if Constantinople were to fall to either the Bulgars or the Arabs), then we may see a much earlier exploration and colonization of the Americas.
Thande said:
I would beg to differ, as IMO the existense of the Caliphate does not necessarily mean it is Islamic. With the POD in 530s or so, quite a bit before Mohammed's birth, it is likely that he was not even born, or if he was, did not become what he became in OTL. However, it has been argued that by VIIth century, Arabia was pretty much a powderkeg waiting to explode, due to overpopulation, and the general military skills of its inhabitants - all it needed was a unifier. Suppose such unifier does appear, but is more of a traditional conqueror type, not a prophet per se. Since "Caliph" literally means "representative", the term could be used for both the representative of a deity/prophet, as well as for a "representative" of a great founder of a nation, or ever could be used metaphorically as "Caliph" being a representative of its people (an Arab republic... the idea could be very interesting).
I could be completely wrong though, I don't know for sure what significance the term "Caliph" held in Arabic language and/or culture, and whether or not it would imply Islam, or merely would be a term of choice for rulers of far-reaching Arab state. Either way, great map and premises.
midgardmetal said:
Thanks! About the Caliphate, what I had in mind originally is some sort of analogue to Muhammad and Islam, but very, very different, perhaps being a heretical (almost unrecognizable as such, even) Christian sect. I’m interested in your Arab republic idea, thou, so its not that set in stone.